International Trade Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

That's good to know, because I'd heard that Ecuador had terminated all of its free trade agreements that contained ISDS in 2018, I think, including a foreign investment protection agreement that Canada had with Ecuador. Now we seem to be trying to force that back on Ecuador. Who knows? That's the concern I have.

I know there have been recent free trade agreements that Ecuador has signed with China and Costa Rica that don't have ISDS contained in there. It doesn't seem that Ecuador necessarily demands this—or at least they've agreed to these other agreements. I'm just wondering why Canada seems to be so concerned.

[Dr. Thomas Chiasson-LeBel]

Actually, I think what happened is that the Costa Rica trade agreement had ISDS provisions in it, and they have been ruled out by the court recently. That's why the whole topic is on the table. All of this is the current political debate, and this is why I think we should postpone the negotiations, because if it's such a debate within Ecuadorean society, maybe Canada should just step aside and let them make their own decisions about what they want for their trade and not be an actor pushing for one side in this current context.

I understand the urgent need that others have to trade with Ecuador, and I respect their will. At the same time, we need to respect the sovereignty of the Ecuadorean people in the context.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I also have heard that Canadian investment in Ecuador has risen substantially since 2018, when that FIPA agreement was terminated. It seems that Canadian investors aren't concerned that there's no ISDS there now with Ecuador.

[Dr. Thomas Chiasson-LeBel]

That's absolutely correct. Investment has grown without the bilateral trade agreements since they were suspended. Therefore a trade agreement is not a condition for investment to happen. It is the condition that helps protect investors in situations that limit the capacity of states to defend the population. It protects investors from the capacity of local populations to express their disagreement and reject certain developments that they would disagree with.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I'd just like to finish up by letting you expand on what you were mentioning with Monsieur Savard-Tremblay. How do we square this with Canada's support for the concept of free, prior and informed consent under the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples? They have put that into recent free trade agreements, yet they have talked about putting in investor-state dispute mechanisms that are really there, it seems, to protect Canadian companies in going against that whole concept.

[Dr. Thomas Chiasson-LeBel]

I don't think you can actually make those two things work together. If you want to have free, prior and informed consent, then you need to have no possibility for investment to block the capacity of the people to make decisions.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

Thank you very much.

We will now turn to our second round of questions, with Mr. Martel for five minutes.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses for joining us today.

Mr. Roy, I gather that Ecuador used to buy pork, but that, in 2019, it refused to allow meat from Canada into the country.

Is that right?

[René Roy]

That's right.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

What happened?

Can you provide more details on this matter?

[René Roy]

I don't have all the details, but I'll tell you what I do know.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

[René Roy]

I gather that changes were made to the regulations governing meat quality and form requests. Seven of our establishments have re‑bid for access to this market.

The United States is Ecuador's leading meat exporter. Chile comes second. Both countries have trade agreements similar to ours. We gather that this issue is more about regulations than politics.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

In a way, the issue is the regulation of agreements.

Is that right?

[René Roy]

Yes, that's our understanding.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Can you provide a few examples of the non‑tariff barriers currently facing your industry?

[René Roy]

As you all know, we currently have a trade agreement with the European Union. One of the non‑tariff barriers imposed on Canada is the obligation to use certain products to preserve meat bound for Europe.

The goal is to avoid bacterial contamination.

The product that we normally use in North America is equivalent to the product used in Europe. However, our processors must use a product manufactured only in Europe. The processors have trouble obtaining this product. That's one example.

I have another example. In the new trade agreement with Great Britain, the Europeans have imposed animal welfare rules that are equivalent to our rules, but worded differently. As a result, if we carry on as before, we won't have access to markets, simply because the words used in the rules are different.

The quality or welfare of the animals are the same. It's just a wording issue. Yet the Europeans will interpret our rules and block access to their markets.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Do we have any guarantees that the barriers will not be put back in place after this free trade agreement comes into effect, or can the Europeans maintain them?

[René Roy]

That's why we're asking for a dispute resolution system.

For us, it would enable the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, our globally recognized agency as a science-based organization, to defend the quality of our trade.

We know that these non-tariff barriers are intended to reduce market access and that it is not the quality or food safety of our products that is at issue.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Given that Canada is the third-largest pork exporter in the world, an agreement with Ecuador would really benefit you, if I understand correctly.

Is it that necessary? What opportunities would this agreement provide?

[René Roy]

Having access to more markets gives us some resilience. I'll give you a concrete example.

We used to export a lot to Russia. All of a sudden, they stopped doing business with us. So we had to turn around and find other markets.

When we do business with more countries, we manage to find new markets, but when we have access to only a small number of them, we do not succeed.

So the more markets we have access to, the more resilient we are, not only in the processing sector but also in the production sector.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you. That's very interesting.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

We have Mr. Miao for five minutes.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to welcome back and thank all the witnesses for being here today.

Through the chair, I would like to direct my first question to Mr. English.

Over the last summer I met with your colleagues from Pulse Canada in Winnipeg and pulse farmers in Calgary, and they shared with me the importance of creating more trade opportunities and making pulse exports easier for farmers across Canada. Could you share with the committee the importance of trade diversification for our pulse sector?