Evidence of meeting #14 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sentences.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chief, Correctional Services Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
Aboriginals represent 21% of admissions in provincial and territorial sentence custody; 18% in remand; 16% on probation; and 19% of conditional sentences.
Conservative
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Getting back to the chart on page 16, the sentence ordered by the judge, whether a conditional sentence, a suspended sentence, or probation, or a term of imprisonment, is a function of the gravity of the offence.
I don't think it's right to say that a person who receives probation is less likely to re-offend than a person who committed a more serious crime. Did this factor into the calculation on page 16?
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
If I understood the question you posed, within this graphic that you see on page 16, we were not able to take into account any prior conviction history within these populations. These were those who left correctional supervision in 2003-2004 after having served the type of sentence that you see in the graphic. It does not take into account any prior history.
Chief, Correctional Services Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
I would like to add on this one that in this particular case, we're looking at differential return profiles, essentially, or outcome profiles of people who were released from the various statuses. It does not control for offence history, and it could very well be that the results you see here are really a reflection of those decisions at the court level, that they got probation because they were of lower risk.
We have looked at data on various risk profiles that are completed when people enter the corrections system, and we do know that the probation population, the conditional sentence population, has lower risk profiles than the custody population. The interaction between the two can't be clearly identified here, but those are other factors that could be operating in terms of the results that you see here.
Conservative
Luc Harvey Conservative Louis-Hébert, QC
Basically, the table could have been entitled “Risk of recidivism based on the gravity of the offence”.
Chief, Correctional Services Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
I wouldn't have titled it that, because we don't know that for certain; those weren't looked at specifically. It's just looking strictly at the result outcomes based on the kinds of sentences they had when they were released from the corrections system.
Conservative
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I have a two-part question for you.
Firstly, you said that you had no data available on Quebec, my home province, where I will have to defend the bill.
Secondly, I'm not familiar with the judicial systems in all of the other provinces. Do they also operate diversion programs similar to the one in place in Quebec? Are you familiar with this concept? When a person commits a first offence, instead of having to go to court, he is considered for a diversion program.
Is diversion a concept that has been embraced in these other four provinces? Right away that would alter the statistics.
Furthermore, did you take into account the fact that in Quebec, hit and run offences now come under a different jurisdiction? At present, such offences are dealt with under the Highway Safety Code, whereas in the past, they would have been deemed Criminal Code violations. Therefore, there has been a change in perception, in so far as criminal offences are concerned.
I'm hoping your statistics will enlighten me. After all, that's why you're here today. I'm wondering if you took all of these variables into account when you came up with your figures?
Project Manager, Courts Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
On your first point, about the statistics for Quebec, we do collect criminal court data for Quebec, but unfortunately at this time they are unable to provide us with conditional sentencing data. It's one of two limitations in the data sent from Quebec. The other is that we don't have any data for municipal courts in Quebec. We have a wealth of sentencing data for Quebec, but unfortunately not conditional sentencing data.
On the first part of your second point about decriminalization, I'm not sure whether that term is used elsewhere. I know that in New Brunswick and British Columbia they have pre-charge screening of offenders before a charge is laid. So the profiles of the court workload in those two provinces and in Quebec are slightly different from those in the rest of the country.
On your third point, on transfers and the assessment of offenders, I'm not really sure how I can answer that question with these data. What I can tell you about the seriousness of the offence is that the data we present for criminal court workload is reflective of the most serious offence against an offender. The seriousness is determined in two ways. For the court data that's presented, the seriousness is first determined by the type of decision, and convictions are always more serious than other decisions. Then if there's a tie, if there are multiple convictions within the same case, a seriousness index is used.
The seriousness index is developed based upon all of the sentence information that exists within the data set, and we look at the average sentences that offence received previously. Offences that have typically gotten a longer sentence or are more frequently sentenced to custody are ranked higher in that order.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Thank you, Mr. Petit.
I have one question that has come to my mind through the discussion here so far. In the information gathered on conditional sentences, has any data been collected or is there any parameter regarding age of the offender when this information was gathered? If there was, my understanding is there was no consideration given to prior conviction history. Only the sentencing of the court is a parameter that governs the information here.
Project Manager, Courts Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
The age of the offender is something we could look at. We didn't for this presentation. It is something that is collected within the data set, but it wasn't one of the items we analyzed for this. We could certainly put together something for the committee that identifies the age of the offender.
Project Manager, Courts Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
Yes.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Thank you for coming
Slide 16, on the surface, is quite a condemnation of this bill, because every one of the people we're talking about is going to get out in the public again, unless they die in prison. People have constantly said that what they want is safety. It's the most important thing they want from the criminal justice system. This suggests that people who have been given a conditional sentence are going to be a lot less likely to offend and people are going to be a lot safer with conditional sentence than prison sentence.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
There are several factors that we were not able to take into account when conducting the analysis. Prior conviction history, as I mentioned, is one that we are not able to take into account.
In interpreting the results of this graphic, one has to be cautious in the fact of keeping in mind the type of offence. We don't control for type of offence, as Michael has already said. So we have to keep in mind those factors that we weren't able to control for while we conducted the analysis.
What we do show within this analysis is the proportion who were reinvolved within the correctional service within a particular period of time. Whether or not the factors that result in a return to the correctional service or a non-return have to do with the prior history, with the nature of the offence, or with the circumstances surrounding it is very difficult for us to tell with these particular data.
Chief, Correctional Services Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
I would just add that, on the offence, you will note, for example, in the previous slide, slide 15, where we look at incarceration as a result of a breach of conditional sentence, we do break it down by offence; and again, it's using the most serious offence concepts, which Craig mentioned, with respect to the courts' data.
When we look at reinvolvement, that is something that was not done here in terms of breaking it down by what kinds of offences their previous involvement was for. It is something that, again, we could do.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Well, what would be good--and I don't want you to answer this--is to take people in identical situations, ones who were incarcerated and ones who weren't, and see the results, because I know these people weren't.
But I have another question, on slide 13. Once again, given that for a thousand years our system hasn't really worked--people keep reoffending and reoffending--you want to find new ways of treating them and doing things so that maybe they won't reoffend so much.
If I read this chart right--and tell me if I'm reading it right--it suggests that with a conditional sentence with probation, we'll be working with that person to improve them for 700 days on average, whereas if they're in prison alone, we'll only be working with them for 47 days. Is that true? Am I reading the chart right?
That is a phenomenal difference of work on a prisoner to make him better, more safe, more rehabilitated than we've ever had in history.
Project Manager, Courts Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
The other thing I can mention about the prison sentences is that this doesn't take into consideration time in custody, pre-trial custody. So the prison sentence is the prison sentence ordered at the time of a guilty finding.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
I'm sure they're not going to be in pre-trial more than they are in post-trial, in general. It's not going to be anywhere near 700 days.
Project Manager, Courts Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
I can't currently speak to that with these data.
Liberal
Larry Bagnell Liberal Yukon, YT
Probably less than 47 days. It's still a tiny figure. There's more and more evidence against this bill. It's incredible.
I'm curious, on page 6, with respect to the incarceration rates--first of all, I'm astonished that the United States is five times more than anyone else--what I'd like to know is whether crime is running rampant in the Scandinavian countries.
Most crime is recidivism in our society. Almost all crimes are done by people who are reoffending. If very few people are in jail in these countries, are their crime rates significantly higher than in the United States or the countries that put people in jail longer?
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
We haven't specifically looked at the crime rates internationally in that context.
