Justice Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2006

[John Turner]

When they send us an incident record, at that point in time they'll have an offence, let's say a firearms offence, and they'll either have a clearance that an accused was identified and whether a charge was laid or not at that point in time when they send in the record.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Is that data here?

[John Turner]

No. The information from the police is based on actual offences regardless of whether there was a charge laid or a suspect identified.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Actual offences--that's what I'm asking about. Is that information here--before any plea bargain thought, before any action taken in that regard? You have that information.

[John Turner]

Yes, but they're not in these graphs. They're regardless of whether someone was charged with that offence. These are simply accounts of a number of offences.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here. I have to say to you, unlike Mr. Murphy, even though we both have Irish backgrounds, I think it's my French background that's going to come forward, because I'm not very self-deprecating.

I have to say to you that I can read very well. These graphs don't help us enough if we don't have the notes that you've been reading from today. I can tell you from many years of experience in the courts, and all the teaching they give us in that regard, that the more senses we use, the more information we're going to retain and the greater level of comprehension.

I would ask you--I know you've written on some of your notes--if you could go back to the original ones and supply that to the clerk so that we could have it passed around. I'd suggest to you in the future that you do the same thing when you come. Give us the written, because it will help both comprehension and retention.

Having said that, Mr. Grimes--I think I caught this--with regard to the prior convictions, again chart 11 or slide 11, did you say the analysis is just of convictions or offences involving a gun in the last year?

[Craig Grimes]

The base file we use, the point of reference, is the last year. We looked back over the past history going back to January 1, 1996, and presented that information. In that way, it was much easier to put it on one chart. We don't have to worry about double-counting persons as we go back in time. We may see someone in 2003 with a conviction, and again in 2002 with a conviction, and if I present the data for 2002, I have effectively counted that person twice. We're trying to remove the possibility of counting the same person multiple times.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I conclude from that, then, that 70% is in fact an accurate figure, that 70% of these offences are by first-time offenders, not repetitive offenders.

[Craig Grimes]

They're not first-time offenders. These individuals wouldn't have had a prior conviction for one of those ten mandatory minimums. They could have had either other contact with police, other contact with the courts, or other prior convictions of a different type. It isn't strictly a first-time versus a recidivist analysis.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

On the four-year mandatory minimum sentence, with that test that you used, were all of those offences gun offences? Did they involve a gun?

[Craig Grimes]

They would be the ones that had those provisions.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It's a gun offence, and it's four years, mandatory minimum.

[Craig Grimes]

That's right.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Chief Bevan, from the Toronto police, issued some statistics in late October or earlier this month showing the rate of gun crimes, crimes involving guns, in 2006, up to the end of October. It showed a very dramatic reduction in the number of gun crimes. It was in the range of 45%. Have you seen that report?

[John Turner]

Just for clarification, you said Chief Bevan of Toronto?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm sorry, I meant Chief Blair of Toronto.

[John Turner]

I saw some information in the newspaper. We haven't processed 2006 data yet.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

If you had that kind of reduction, which was in the range of a reduction of about 55 murders that did not involve guns, what kind of impact would it have had on the 2005 figures across the whole of the country if you had that number of fewer murders involving a gun?

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

There were 658 homicides in total in 2005. There were 222 firearm homicides in 2005. Those are the numbers for 2005. As John said, we do not yet have numbers for 2006 that are available.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It hasn't been dealt with yet, but if we had what appears to have been a gangland multiple murder just outside of London in Ontario earlier this year that involved eight murders—again, I believe all of those murders were all committed with a gun—can you give me an indication of what kind of impact that would have on those 200-plus?

This is what I'm looking for, Ms. Barr-Telford. We know we periodically get spikes. If we go back through the last 20 or 25 years, we can find them, and usually it's because we've had an incident like that. Is it fair to conclude that we get those periodic spikes?

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

I'll let John let you know how we count our homicides, but just so you have the numbers, we had 107 gang-related homicides in 2005. In Ontario, the number was 31 gang-related homicides. That gives you the 2005 data.

Perhaps John can speak to how we count homicides.

[John Turner]

In the incident you described, if there were eight victims in that one incident, we would count them as eight in our total, sir. That would be one incident, but eight victims.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You don't cover the whole of the country; that is, you don't get reports from the whole of the country, from all police forces.

Are these figures weighted in some fashion? It appears that you're drawing from the larger cities in greater proportion than from smaller communities. So do you weight these numbers in some fashion? In particular, I'm asking whether the murder rate is somewhat skewed because you're using figures primarily from the larger cities.

[Lynn Barr-Telford]

We mentioned there are three different sources of police-reported data we're using. Our homicide data has 100% national coverage.