Evidence of meeting #33 for Justice and Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was slide.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Art Hanger
Thank you, Mr. Comartin.
Were you going to make comments, Mr. Turner?
4:30 p.m.
Chief, Policing Services Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
I was simply going to add that it gets a bit complicated, but the aggregate count for each offence is also from a census of the whole country. So we have full coverage of the number of robberies, the number of break-and-enters. The only time we don't have the full coverage now is in the incident-based survey, referred to earlier, where we get the detailed characteristics of crimes other than homicide—which we do have. That survey is an ongoing development.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Thank you, and welcome. Thanks for coming.
We're here talking about Bill C-10 and increasing the incarceration levels for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime. We're referring to gangs and guns. More than anything, I think we're trying to respond to the reply from the public at large, who seem to be fed up with what's happening in the streets and cities and elsewhere in regard to the use of guns.
When I look at a chart like the one on page 6, I see that with rifles and shotguns there has been a steady and continuing decline from 1975. And then I see with handguns that it's up and down all over the place; I don't think that has anything to do with the registry, since registries for handguns have in place since 1934, or something like that.
Bill C-17 came in because of the peak in 1991. Can I assume that from this chart? Is that correct? Was the bill an attempt by the government of the day to deal with the issue of guns?
November 22nd, 2006 / 4:30 p.m.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
Bill C-17 was legislation put in place. However, all we can do is to plot where these things happened. Why the legislation was brought into place is not something we can speak to.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Then as we progress through the years, I see that by 2005 the use of handguns in committing homicides was nearly as high as it was at its peak in 1971. So 1971 was the worst year, and it looks like 2005 was second. Is that correct? Am I reading that right?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
No, 1991 was the peak year.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Oh, 1991—I'm sorry, not 1971. In 1991 when Bill C-17 was brought in, that was the worst time, and then during the nineties it went up and down a little bit. And then am I correct in saying 2005 was the second worst time, or 2004?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
Well, it was certainly one of the higher rates we've seen since 1991. We know that the number of handgun homicides has been up in six of the last seven years. The rate has been stable in a couple of those years, but the number of handgun homicides has been up in six of the last seven years.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Okay. I really have a tough time with some of these charts. I'm a lot like some of the other fellows, but what I don't have a hard time understanding is that there's a real public outcry to get something done about guns and the crimes that have happened in the recent months and year—just this last year.
So I'm going to ask you, do you have any evidence at all that increasing the rate of incarceration is going to affect these kinds of stats? Do you have any evidence at all in that regard since the imposition of the mandatory minimums of the mid-nineties?
4:30 p.m.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
At Statistics Canada we have not done any kind of evaluative study in any way. What we have done in terms of providing information is to have assembled various trend information, which you see as part of this deck as well. That's the type of information we've been putting forth.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Okay. So you don't have any idea of whether the extra costs for extra incarceration, those kinds of costs, are going to have an impact on the cost of crime, such as, the more you incarcerate, the less the cost of crime? Can you do that?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
What we can tell you with our corrections information, although I do not have the figure with me today, is what the average cost is of housing someone in custody. We can provide that cost figure. That's what we can—
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
I realize that. I don't know if we can do it, but what is the cost of crime to the public, in comparison to the cost to incarcerate? I really think we overlook in our justice system, to a great extent, the actual cost to society as a whole of crime.
In one of your charts here, you mention, in bold print, that one-third of crimes, I think it said, are committed with knives and guns—of homicides, one-third. That means for two-thirds something else is used. Do you have any idea what those “something elses” are, besides clubs, tire irons, and baseball bats? Is this what that means?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
In fact, we do have number, and John has them with him, actually.
4:35 p.m.
Chief, Policing Services Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
Would you like those now? I could give those to you.
Just to give 2005, as a recent example, 22% were from beatings, 7% from strangulation and suffocation, and then the others are fairly small numbers, but they're such things as shaken-baby syndrome, poisoning, using a motor vehicle, things like that.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
But the significant increase of the selection of a weapon to do the crime is guns in the last—
4:35 p.m.
Chief, Policing Services Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
In the last three years, yes.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
The last three years. We know then that because of the last three years we have to do something about guns, and that's why we're doing Bill C-10. You're the wrong people to ask your opinion of Bill C-10, I realize that, as you're here to provide us with some information, but I really think the cost of crime is never brought into the picture.
Is there any way, because of your experience as statisticians, that this kind of thing could be brought front and centre? I don't think we really measure the cost of crime. We know what it costs to feed a goofball to put him in the penitentiary, but I don't know what it costs as a result of what he did. Is there any way we can do that?
4:35 p.m.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
We don't have any data that speaks to the overall cost of crime.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
4:35 p.m.
Director, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
I'll allow my colleagues to speak to that.
4:35 p.m.
Project Manager, Courts Program, Statistics Canada, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics
In terms of the costs to the victims or the public, in relation to crime, no, there's been nothing on that.
What I can tell you about our data, in relationship to the bill, is that of those coming through the courts and the number getting convicted, the number is low. The number of cases that are convicted with a firearm is low in relation to all the other charges in cases coming to court for those 10 offences that contain those provisions.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
Myron Thompson Conservative Wild Rose, AB
Okay. That's what I was trying to get at.
Thank you very much.