Justice Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

I call to order the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights, on this date, Thursday, November 23, 2006.

We are continuing our discussion and debate on Bill C-10, an act to amend the Criminal Code—that is, minimum penalties for offences involving firearms.

We certainly have the pleasure of being in the city of Toronto. I guess actually Mississauga would be more the area where the airport is, but at least in the area of Toronto. With us, of course, are several witnesses from this region, one being the chief of the Toronto Police Service, Chief William Blair.

Just before I ask Chief Blair to sit at the table, we have one quick item of business that we would like to address. You have a copy of a motion before you, and I would turn to the Honourable Sue Barnes, MP, with the Liberal caucus, to make that motion.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

In deference to our witnesses, and not wishing to hold them up, I will place this motion, which I would have done if I had not been ill at the end of the two days of hearings we had on the court challenges program and the Law Commission. I'm not going to speak on this. I'm just asking for the vote. We'll take it that everybody, over those two days, had an opportunity to put their remarks on the record.

This is for the reinstatement of the funding for the two programs at the 2005-06 level, and that the chair report the adoption of the motion to the House forthwith. I'll call for a recorded vote, and then that will be all, Mr. Chair, and we can get on with our business of the day.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

A recorded vote has been called for.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

May I ask that you report this back to the House as soon as possible?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

It shall be reported back to the House.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Ms. Barnes.

Would Chief Blair come to the table?

Chief Blair, the committee, of course, has been studying Bill C-10 and the concern over the issue of offences involving firearms. We've had some meetings already, but the debate certainly has not come to any conclusion at this point. We anticipate several more weeks of meetings and witnesses to be heard.

It's our pleasure, certainly, to be in your city. There was unanimous agreement to attend here to get some first-hand information and make ourselves available to whoever would like to speak.

With that, Chief, the floor is yours. Perhaps you could present, and then I know we will have a series of questions.

[Chief William Blair, Chief, Toronto Police Service]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is a great pleasure to be here. Just as a point of clarification, I am delighted to be able to welcome you to the city of Toronto. You're still in the city of Toronto, although you're right on the edge of our border.

As has been indicated, and obviously by the way I'm dressed, I am the chief of the Toronto Police Service. It is my pleasure to come before you today to speak a little bit about our experience in Toronto as it pertains to gun violence.

As I am sure you are all aware, in the past year in particular, but actually over the past three or four years, we have experienced a significant increase in the level of gun violence in our city. That culminated in what was characterized by the media last year as the year of the gun. It was a year that saw an increase in the number of gun-related homicides in excess of 85% in Toronto, a significant increase in the number of shooting occurrences, and, equally significant, great concern among our citizens about public safety on our streets.

The violence that occurred last year is very much tied to the activities of gangs involved in a wide variety of criminal activities in our communities, most notably drug trafficking. Gangs have increasingly armed themselves with handguns over the past number of years and have been engaged in very public use of those handguns, endangering very many people in our city.

Last year we had a number of very high-profile events in the city, which I am sure you're aware of, but let me recount some of them for you. In July 2005 there was a gun battle engaged in one of our housing communities in which a four-year-old child was injured. The child was shot four times while playing in his backyard. We had another incident where a young man attended the funeral of a friend and was shot down on the steps of the church in which the funeral was taking place.

Perhaps the most widely publicized event, and the one that caused the greatest public concern in our city, was the Boxing Day shooting that occurred at Yonge and Gould last year at about 4:30 in the afternoon on a day when the people of Toronto frequently come down to that location and have historically attended there. Very few citizens in my city have not been down to Sam the Record Man, located at that corner, on Boxing Day.

A number of individuals, about 12 to be precise, were engaged in a dispute over drug territories, and guns came out. There was an exchange of gunfire on the street, and when the smoke had cleared, seven people had been shot, one of them a 15-year-old innocent child who was shopping with her mother. She lay dead on the roadway.

We have conducted a very exhaustive investigation and brought the people who we believe to be responsible for that crime to justice. They are currently before the courts. But the wounds that that event and others like it have inflicted upon our city and our communities remain. There is still a great concern about violence in our communities.

You may have read that this year in Toronto we have mounted an effective response to some of the gun violence we have experienced. I am very proud of the fact that we have undertaken a strategy known as the Toronto anti-violence intervention strategy, in which we have dedicated hundreds of new police resources to the fight against violence. We have been very active in identifying, apprehending, and prosecuting the most violent of offenders, to remove them from our streets and make the communities in which they were preying safer. We've put uniformed officers in those areas that were experiencing violence, and we have had some success in suppressing some of that violence. We have not eliminated it.

We've put a lot of people in jail. We've seized a great number of guns. We have worked very hard with our community partners in an attempt to restore a sense of safety and create opportunities and hope in those communities that had none, where people can now be safer and feel safer. As I indicated, we have had some success, but our success has been limited by the continued violence by a number of individuals.

Even as recently as this week, we had another event where gunmen took out guns and sprayed bullets on Yonge Street, only blocks south of where Jane Creba was killed last year. Hours later, on the 401, three young gunmen fired upon police officers who were attempting to apprehend them after they had robbed a business premises earlier in the evening. The individuals responsible for that are now in custody.

But we continue to see the use of guns in our community. I'm strongly of the opinion, having read the provisions proposed in Bill C-10.... I've spoken to my people, and we're looking very hard at what is happening in our city, and not only in our city, but in cities right across Canada. As the chair of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police organized crime committee and of the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police organized crime committee, I have had the opportunity to speak with my colleagues in every city and every jurisdiction in this country. What we are seeing, certainly across the province of Ontario, and what large urban centres across this country are experiencing, is an increase in gun violence, the availability of guns, and the willingness of criminals to use those guns to enforce their will upon communities to terrorize communities. And what we're seeing very often is even young people gaining access to guns, carrying guns, resolving disputes that used to be resolved with a punch in the nose but now are resulting in a spurt of gunfire, killing not only the protagonists involved, but innocent people in the vicinity. That remains a significant concern across this country. I am strongly of the opinion that in order to reduce this violence, we must accomplish many things. There is no simple answer to this. There is no one answer.

Certainly we have a responsibility to apprehend the most violent offenders and to take them off the street. In addition to taking them off the street, they have to know that there are real consequences for their criminal conduct. The only reason to carry a loaded handgun in my town is to kill people. So when an individual chooses to take up a gun in the city of Toronto, they are putting all their fellow citizens at risk. They have to know that there is a strong likelihood that they will be caught, and that's my job. But they also have to know that when caught, there are real, serious, and certain consequences for those actions. Quite frankly, the certainty of those consequences is not currently available in our system, and our criminals are not being deterred.

But I can also tell you, from experience, that this year we undertook a significant organized crime investigation in a neighbourhood known as Jamestown, not very far from where we are sitting now. It is a neighbourhood, a relatively small neighbourhood, that had 10 gun-related murders--murders committed with handguns--in 2005. We conducted a major investigation, and in May of this year we apprehended 106 members of the Jamestown Crew--gang members and organized crime members from that community. We kept most of the violent ones in custody. We managed to keep them in custody through the summer.

Last year there were 10 murders in that community; this year there have been none. Last year there were over 45 shootings in that community; this year there were only a handful. The difference in that community has been extraordinary. And it's because the individuals who were preying on that community and committing so much violence have been incapacitated in their ability to terrorize that neighbourhood. Because they are in custody, they haven't been out on those streets to kill people and kill each other. And that neighbourhood is experiencing a significant renaissance.

The other things we are attempting to do in that community--to make it safe, to create new opportunity, to create hope, to restore a community's confidence and its pride--can only take place when the bullets no longer fly around the neighbourhood. So by taking the most violent offenders off the street, and, most importantly, by keeping them off the street, we create an opportunity for the other positive things to happen so that our youth workers, our schools, our faith leaders, our community leaders, the business community, and all of us together can make a real difference in those communities. But it only works when the gunmen are gone.

I am available, sir, to speak to any issues you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Chief. We appreciate those comments.

I'm going to begin with Ms. Barnes. I know there have been numerous questions about just how effective incarceration is when it comes to violent offenders. I know this will be a topic of much discussion.

Go ahead, Ms. Barnes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'm very pleased to see that in this city, Chief Blair, you've been able to utilize some of the other pieces that are within your control as a police officer. I think that bodes well for the city of Toronto. I note that about 10% of the city budget--$794 million--is for policing in this city. Those are maybe just slightly out-of-date figures, but that's a substantial part of the city budget. But it seems that if you're bringing down the rates, it is well spent. I commend your officers.

First of all, when you say there's no certainty of consequences, to what do you attribute the fact that there's no certainty of consequences? All these offences are in the Criminal Code right now and they all have maximum penalties. So when you say a statement like that, what do you directly attribute that to?

[Chief William Blair]

First of all, let me begin even before we get to trial. We have had situations in Toronto where we have apprehended individuals with guns on our streets, loaded guns, and I have to tell you a little bit about doing that.

I've done that before, and my people do it every single day. We seize guns every day off our streets, loaded guns. Just in the past 24 hours we've seized five handguns and a shotgun, in very dangerous circumstances. Those are life and death events for my folks. I think you really have to be there and experience that with your heart pounding and you can barely see.

So when we do that and the individual is apprehended and sent to court, and within sometimes hours, rarely more than days, that same individual is released from custody and is back on the street—and these are actual events—and weeks later, we apprehend that same individual with a gun again and he's released again, and then a few weeks later, a third time, I think that undermines the confidence of my people, and it certainly undermines public confidence, in the determination of the criminal justice system to make our neighbourhoods safe.

People are working very hard and are very dedicated, and what we see is very long delays in bringing these matters to trial. We now, in the city of Toronto, experience up to 13 remands before we can actually conclude one of these criminal matters, and so often these individuals are out in the community. When we are trying to restore a sense of safety in neighbourhoods, when we take the most violent gun offenders and lock them up and they're back days later, people who have cooperated with us and assisted us in our investigation are terrorized by their presence in the neighbourhood.

So there is certainly a perception of a lack of consequences for those very serious offences, and the sentences that people have been receiving for carrying firearms are more reflective of the carrying of a loaded handgun in the city of Toronto as if it were a regulatory problem as opposed to a significant public safety problem.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

We're talking about the mandatory minimums; we're not talking about up to remands. But you did bring up one of the problems that we'll probably be addressing later, and that is the impact of Askov in delays. When you have higher mandatory minimums without the discretion, you're probably going to have more trials. We've been told that from the evidence.

But I have only limited time, so one of the things I want to highlight to you is that under this bill as it's currently drafted...I'm going to give you the example a prosecutor gave to me, and I used it last spring and it still hasn't been adequately answered.

An individual commits robbery, for example, at the corner store, while armed with a fully loaded long gun. This individual has a lengthy record, including numerous prior convictions for other firearms-related offences. Under proposed subparagraph 344(1)(a)(i), this individual faces a mandatory minimum of four years. I'm going to contrast that with another individual who commits a robbery but is armed with an unloaded handgun, not a long gun this time. This individual, unlike the other, is a first-time offender with no criminal record, and under proposed paragraph 344(1)(a), this person now faces a mandatory minimum sentence of five years. You could take that robbery and switch it in with sexual assault, kidnapping, hostage taking, or extortion, with the same result. We have a discrepancy of a year.

Do you agree with those discrepancies? We're talking about an unloaded handgun, with a first-time offender getting a mandatory minimum of five years, versus a loaded long gun, with the offender, having a lengthy record, getting four years.

Do you see any sense in this?

[Chief William Blair]

First of all, I've worked in our holdup squad in the past, and I can't recall anybody committing robberies with an unloaded gun.

That said, I think the real issue is the level of danger that both offences pose, and mandatory minimums should be in fact that. In circumstances that are more aggravated, and certainly in the case that you first describe, I would be strongly of the opinion that a four-year mandatory minimum would be the absolute base that one would start at, but I would expect, with all those aggravating factors that you've outlined, that a judge does and should have the discretion to impose a much more significant sentence for a person responsible for multiple offences who clearly poses a significant public safety risk.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Ms. Barnes.

Mr. Ménard.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Yesterday we heard testimony from the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics. They told us that in Vancouver and Toronto, the rate of homicides with a firearm was the highest, 0.9 people per 100,000 inhabitants. The clerk could send you a copy of those statistics but I am sure you are quite familiar with them.

I am interested in the effectiveness of legislative measures. There was no substantive study tabled before this committee showing that minimum sentences act as a deterrent. If they did, we would not be in the situation we find ourselves in because, if you recall, Bill C-68 was passed in 1995, and under that bill, 10 offences led to a minimum sentence of four years. But believing in minimum sentences doesn't mean that nothing should be done.

With respect to street gangs, what do you think is currently lacking? Do you think there's something lacking in the Criminal Code, in the way investigations are carried out, or in our ability to catch people in the act?

I was in the House when Bill C-95 was passed, whereby a new offence dealing with gang activity was created. The bill was subsequently amended because the chief of police said that the three “5” system — five offences committed over five years by five individuals — was not workable. The gang activity offence was therefore modified.

Is something lacking in the Criminal Code with respect to street gangs? Should we be creating new offences or adding new rights? What would you suggest?

[Chief William Blair]

With regard to our street gang problem, I'm gratified you mentioned that this is not a problem limited only to Toronto. As I'm sure you're aware, Montreal has experienced significant problems with street gangs and street gang violence, as have other cities in Canada, including Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, and Halifax. I have spoken and met with the chiefs of all of these jurisdictions. All of them are very concerned, as are their communities, about safety in their communities and particularly the use of firearms.

The proportion of murders committed with a gun has doubled in the past ten years in the city of Toronto. This is a very disturbing trend, particularly in light of what we have also seen taking place with street gangs, a very similar cultural issue, in our counterpart cities in the United States. One of the responses we have mounted effectively in Toronto is the use of section 467.1 of the Criminal Code in identifying and dealing with some of these street gangs. Some of them are in fact criminal enterprises, organized crime groups. We have mounted very significant, complex, and, I will confess, expensive and resource-intensive investigations in apprehending, dismantling, and disrupting those gangs. That section has been very effective.

One of the challenges we face is that when we conduct these investigations--perhaps you have read of this recently--it places tremendous pressure on the other aspects of the criminal justice system. It places tremendous pressure on the capacity of our courts and on the capacity of our own force to provide security for those courts. For example, we've been going through a preliminary hearing for one of our street gangs, a very violent street gang involved in several murders and many violent acts. Our costs for providing court security, the need for specialized facilities for those prosecutions, and the challenge for legal aid and other aspects of the system have been enormous.

But we are attempting to use the tools available to us to provide an effective response so that we get the most violent offenders off the streets.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

A trial is currently under way in Montreal; we will see how it unfolds.

With respect to sections 467 and 468 of the Criminal Code, do you think that the gang activity offence will enable you to dismantle street gangs? Do those sections reflect reality or, conversely, should the committee devote two or three meetings fully to street gangs?

The RCMP told us that 7,000 individuals are members of street gangs in Canada. Do you think that the gang activity section is appropriate? Do you think any procedural difficulties exist because of the Stinchcombe ruling or because of the rules dealing with disclosure of evidence? What exactly are we talking about?

[Chief William Blair]

Let me tell you something. First of all, with respect to street gangs in Canada, approximately 7,000 people have been identified as members of gangs. Not all those gangs would fit our definition of “organized crime”. Some of them are much more loosely organized. Individuals in those gangs and associated with those gangs may not be involved in organized criminal activity, and therefore there are limitations in using criminal enterprise legislation against such individuals. But what we are also seeing is that some of those individuals are choosing to arm themselves with guns. In so doing, they are placing themselves and others in our communities at great risk.

One of the challenges we face in dealing effectively with these gangs is the intimidation of civilian witnesses, encouraging people to come forward to cooperate and support us in our investigations. When we apprehend an individual with a gun--and as I've indicated, there is no legitimate reason to carry a handgun. If you're not a police or security professional in the city of Toronto, the only reason to carry a loaded handgun in our streets is to kill people. When we apprehend those individuals for those offences who are in possession of those guns, we need to be able to intervene at that point. It is a significant and serious enough trigger that the individual represents an overwhelming threat to public safety, and the criminal justice system has to be able to deal effectively with that individual.

The issue of criminal enterprise, the insidious nature of organized crime, the threat and challenges organized crime represents to all of our communities is one that the...I believe we've used the existing legislation effectively. As I've indicated, it places tremendous burdens on the criminal justice system, but it's a good tool, and we have used it to good effect in the community.

There is another problem, and it is individuals who choose to take up handguns and to carry those guns—

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Why?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Ménard, thank you.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Chief, for being here today.

Chief, it was reported within the last two or three weeks that you released some statistics on the occasion of gun crimes in the city in 2006 showing a dramatic reduction in the number of murders committed with guns, and that the overall rate of murder in Toronto was down appreciably.

I'm wondering, for the purpose of getting this on the record--I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think you were attributing that to what you talked about today in your opening statement, to the specific efforts the police services put into specific communities in going after specific gangs. Is that fair? Is that the primary—

[Chief William Blair]

Only partly, sir. I attribute the reduction in violence to a number of things, and I give full credit to our partners in communities, youth workers, the schools, our faith leaders, business leaders, community leaders everywhere, who have really made an effort to create opportunity and hope and some prosperity in marginalized communities in deterring young people from following in the footsteps of others. We've worked hard to take those violent offenders out of the community, but the work doesn't stop at that, and more needs to be done in those communities to make them safer and better places, and more hopeful places, and less likely to attract young people into criminal activity.

We've worked hard, and I'm proud to say the police have mounted a fairly effective response, and others have worked hard as well. It's also important to acknowledge that there's no room for complacency here, and the work is not done. We have had successes in the past and we have seen something of the cyclical nature. It's important to step back a little bit from monthly successes or problems and look more generally at the larger trend, and not just in the city of Toronto.

One of the things that has also taken place in your jurisdiction.... I have spoken to Chief Stannard in Windsor, and he has expressed concern to me that there has been some displacement of my gang problems. We've been well resourced and we've worked very hard on our gangs, and some of our gangsters are moving into other jurisdictions that are less well resourced and are perhaps more vulnerable to criminal activity. So what we're seeing is an increase in gang violence in other cities across Ontario. There is some suggestion that we have displaced it, and there's some merit to that. It's incumbent upon all of us in the criminal justice system to rise together to the challenge of gun violence in our communities, so that we don't displace it, we eliminate it.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I want to come back to the displacement argument in a moment, but just to stay with the specific endeavours the police services have had here and the success with them. This is just straight dollars. Given the monetary cost that entails, can you sustain that effort for the next two or three years?

[Chief William Blair]

Let me talk about the effort a little bit, if I may, sir.

First of all, I moved about 200 people back into uniform, into communities. That's where I needed them. They're out there enforcing the laws and helping keep neighbourhoods safe. I'll sustain that. That's me deploying some existing resources.

Both the City of Toronto and the Province of Ontario have provided us with funding to hire 250 additional police officers. I've done that and they're out there.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

They're in place now?