Justice Committee on May 16th, 2006

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Bagnell.

Mr. Warawa.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for being here.

I found the use of and support for statistics interesting. My background is with the Insurance Corporation of British Columbia, and there was a great deal of frustration within a number of communities when the RCMP made a decision not to attend motor vehicle crashes if there was no injury. Statistically it appeared that the crashes went down, but it was because they did not attend any more.

I was born in 1950 and grew up in the 1960s and 1970s. We did not have swarmings and stompings when I grew up. We did not have home invasions, grow ops in almost every neighbourhood in Canada, the gang and the gun violence, or the bank robberies. We did not have Internet luring when I grew up. Mr. Chair, we did not have the--

[An hon. member]

There was no Internet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Mr. Lee, if you would, the member would like to ask his questions.

[Mark Warawa, Conservative, Langley, BC]

Mr. Chair, the point I was making is that statistics can be a guide; they can be a tool. But we have to be very careful that we base good policy...and it was a Liberal member who asked if we have a balance. I think it's a good question. When I've knocked on doors, when I've met families face to face, on the question of whether we have balance in Canada right now, the message I get loud and clear is that we do not have a balance.

Canadians want Canada to be safer. They demand it. The question that I've heard time and time again is, what does it cost? The member beside me, Mrs. Smith, asked that question: what does it cost families? You cannot put dollars and cents on what it costs a family and what it could cost a community to leave a high-risk offender in the community. I think that is a very important question, and it's a hard one to answer, but there is a price that communities want to have addressed. We want to have dangerous offenders incarcerated.

Mr. Chair, I support the plan and the mandate of the government, particularly on the age of consent. I served on the last justice committee, and we heard from a number of witnesses that our age of consent is one of the lowest in the world. Our children are being lured through the Internet. So I do support where we're going.

Mr. Chair, will the age of consent for sexual activity be the same as the age of responsibility for criminal activity, and if not, why not?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

At this time we haven't examined the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I know there were various commitments made by various parties in the last election in terms of reducing the age of criminal responsibility for certain types of offences. My department is presently examining aspects of the Youth Criminal Justice Act, and we have not yet developed any particular strategy in respect of that act. But I might say that Attorney General Scott of Nova Scotia came to see me, and he was very concerned about the issue of pre-trial release of young offenders. He felt that was an issue that needed to be addressed. The Mayor of Toronto, for example, talked about a reverse onus when it came to gun crimes.

I think we need to examine whether it's an adult or a youth when we talk about the conditions upon which release is provided, and that's something that needs to be done.

We will examine all of the platform commitments that my party made in the last election, as well as some of the commitments made, I believe, by the New Democratic Party in respect of those same issues.

I think there is room to move. In a minority Parliament, of course, you have to move where and when you can, and that's one of the reasons why, for example, we brought forward the mandatory minimum prison sentences on gun crime--something that was supported by the Liberal Party and the NDP during the last election. That was one of the reasons we moved as quickly as we did, and we will hold, and indeed the Canadian people will hold, parties accountable if they don't carry out the promises they made during the election.

I will just say this in closing about the point you made in terms of the cost, what is the cost to society. I was addressing the Surrey Chamber of Commerce some time ago, and they estimated at that time that the cost of a crack addict on the street is about $1,000 in stolen product every day--every day. That's 365 days a year; that's $365,000 a year. Not everybody pays for it, but the business people certainly pay for that. There is a tremendous cost in that $365,000 that one crack addict is stealing in the course of a year. That's a cost that often goes unnoticed. That's a financial cost.

But the cost to someone whose house is invaded.... For an old man, for example, whose house is invaded and who is beaten senseless by individuals who want to steal a few hundred dollars, what's the cost to that individual? Where's the balance? Where's the balance when we start talking about that kind of cost and those who would perpetrate those kinds of crimes against the most vulnerable people in our society?

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Thank you, Mr. Warawa.

Mr. Lee.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Toews, I don't have much choice now, listening to you and your colleagues--and I'm sorry I have to do this--but I have to accuse you of engaging in the politics of fear. You know what that is, of course. If you can make Canadians feel really unsafe and then hold out for them a fake solution you can pass along that you'll throw all the bad guys in jail and everything will be okay again.... I can't help but see that this is what is happening now as you give your remarks today, focused on your department's spending estimates...and your colleagues here at the table. I really regret that.

I'm not a stranger to this committee. My roots go back to 1988 here.

Can you tell us the sources of the statistics that you and your officials would use to design good justice policy? What are the sources of your statistics? Are they Stats Can? Are they Juristat? What are they?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

What I would suggest to this committee is that it may want to invite the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics to talk about the generational statistics of the sort that I've been mentioning.

On the issue of violent crime rising, overall crime rising, Canada's statistics demonstrate that very clearly. I mean, if you take five-year periods and then say the crime rate in certain areas is going down, certainly, but if you look at it in a generational way, I don't think anyone can honestly say things are better in terms of crime today than they were 35 years ago.

To suggest that I'm engaging in the politics of fear is I think an unsubstantiated comment. I don't have to engage in the politics of fear. I know that people are fearful. People are fearful, and what I am simply doing is representing those people who are concerned about crime, who see where our society has gone in the last 35 years. What I find encouraging is that there are jurisdictions where you can actually turn this around, but it does mean some tough measures. I can only point back to that New York statistic. I think to myself, to have a murder rate lower than it was in 1963...what would Canadians give to have a murder rate lower than in 1963?

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I don't think they're going to be comfortable with 500 murders a year. However--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's not what I'm suggesting and you know that--

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

--I want to ask you another question before you continue on with this politics of fear business. I'm happy to look at statistics, because everything I've seen for all the years I've been here has shown a declining rate of incidence of criminality in Canada across the board. Once in a while there's a spike, but that's what I've seen. You're coming in with new messaging here. I'd really like to see the data, and I'm sure my colleagues around the table would as well.

I ask you, in the new measures in Bill C-9, conditional sentencing, and mandatory minimum penalties in Bill C-10, has the department done any costing in terms of how much additional investment there would have to be in courts and incarceration in correctional facilities to deal with the increased convictions, presumably, with the new sentences, the higher sentences, and the absence of conditional sentencing? Would you also address this? I'm confused. You said your legislation targeted gangs and gang activity.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Gangs and guns.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

And gun activity. Why is it that in these bills there are additional sentences, minimum penalties, for cattle theft and unauthorized use of a computer? How did you manage to make unauthorized use of a computer a gang activity or a gun activity? It doesn't compute. Can you help me with those two things, costing for the prisons and the apparent absence of targeting of this legislation on gang activity?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let's look at the issue of conditional sentencing. If I have more time I'll go on to the other issue. On the issue of conditional sentencing, as you will recall, Minister Rock, when he brought in these conditional sentences, indicated they would never be used for serious or violent crimes. That was his statement. Of course, what he said was wrong. In fact, when I was the provincial attorney general I authorized my department to take a number of cases to the Supreme Court of Canada in respect of drunk driving causing death or injury--I can't remember which one it was--where conditional sentences had been handed out. The court said there's nothing wrong with that; you're entitled to give conditional sentences for that kind of crime, a reprehensible crime, a crime that involves killing--conditional sentences.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

Like cattle theft, cattle rustling.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

You either want to hear the answer or you don't.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I do.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Obviously you don't.

[The Chair, Conservative, Art Hanger]

Order, please. Let the minister complete his statement.

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I'm sorry, I was trying to get some focus here.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

So what we chose is crimes punishable by ten years or more, and it was the line that was drawn. Obviously someone in Parliament over the years said these are the crimes that are serious. I would consider any crime punishable by ten years or more.... And if you look at when the conditional discharges were brought in, any crimes that were punishable by ten years or more were excluded from conditional discharges, so there is a rationale to this.

If you have a problem with cattle rustling and that's your only objection to this bill, I would be happy to sponsor--

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

It's not.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

--an amendment to exclude cattle rustling. I might have to explain that to a number of my farmers who are not happy when their cattle is stolen--and you might think it's funny that these people lose cattle; it's not funny when they lose their livelihood in that manner. It impacts very directly on--

[Derek Lee, Liberal, Scarborough—Rouge River, ON]

I don't dispute that.