Evidence of meeting #12 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offence.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William Bartlett  Senior Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Matthew Taylor  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I call the meeting to order. This is meeting number 12 of the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. Today is Monday, March 30, 2009.

You have the agenda for today before you. By order of reference, we have before us Bill C-14, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (organized crime and protection of justice system participants).

Please note that we will be leaving half an hour at the end of this meeting to discuss in camera a number of work plan issues that the committee has to address.

To assist us in the review of Bill C-14, we're glad to have with us the Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada, the Honourable Rob Nicholson. With him are representatives from the Department of Justice. First of all, we have Mr. William Bartlett, senior counsel, criminal law policy section; we also have Matthew Taylor, who's also counsel with the criminal law policy section.

Minister Nicholson will be with us for one hour. I believe Department of Justice officials will be here for another half an hour after that, so that works well.

Minister Nicholson, you're aware of the routine. You have 10 minutes to present, and we'll open the floor to questions. The floor is yours.

3:30 p.m.

Niagara Falls Ontario

Conservative

Rob Nicholson ConservativeMinister of Justice

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for giving us the opportunity to come and talk about Bill C-14.

As you know, our government is committed to fighting crime and ensuring the safety and security of Canadians. We've made great strides in protecting Canadians and cracking down on crime. We passed the comprehensive Tackling Violent Crime Act, which increases penalties, including for those convicted of street racing, and establishes the national anti-drug strategy to curb illicit drug use. Ours is a comprehensive approach on these matters.

Bill C-14 is another plank in our ambitious crime agenda. This important piece of legislation is an example of this government's ongoing commitment to improve the safety of our streets and communities by tackling organized crime, especially violent street gangs. I'll set out some of the major components of this, and of course I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have on this.

Gang violence is an extremely serious concern for many Canadians, especially right now in Vancouver and the Lower Mainland, where recently there has been a wave of violence from gang members. I receive letters and e-mail from citizens, mayors, and attorneys general urging the federal government to take action to address the threats that gangs are posing to their communities.

Bill C-14 proposes four key reforms. They are making gang murders automatically first degree murder; creating a new offence to target drive-by and other reckless shootings; fortifying the scheme for responding to assaults against police and other peace officers and public officers; and strengthening the gang peace bond provisions.

With respect to murders that can be linked to organized crime, we are proposing amendments that would automatically treat these cases as first degree murder regardless of whether they are planned and deliberate. Furthermore, if it can be established that the murder occurred while the person was committing or attempting to commit another indictable offence for the benefit of, at the direction of, or in association with a criminal organization, then it will be classed as first degree murder even in the absence of planning and deliberation. The person would obviously have to be guilty of murder in the circumstances. I want to emphasize that we are not talking about some form of constructive murder or raising manslaughter to murder in these circumstances. Rather, the effect of the provision would be to make any murder committed in the course of another criminal organization offence first degree rather than second degree.

Gang homicides account for approximately 20% of all the homicides that take place in Canada, but in British Columbia, which has been hard hit by gang violence, that number is a staggering 40% of all homicides. What is even more troubling is that gang homicide rates have been climbing each year. Clearly, this demands attention from all levels of government.

Under this law, any person found guilty of first degree murder is sentenced to a mandatory term of life imprisonment. As you know, in the case of first degree murder, there is no eligibility for parole for 25 years. In the case of second degree murder, the parole ineligibility period is a minimum of 10 years up to a maximum of 25. These amendments to section 231 of the Criminal Code mean that police officers and prosecutors will have another tool to treat gang murders as the extremely serious cases that they are.

The second area of reform relates to drive-by and other reckless shootings. We are proposing a new offence be added to the Criminal Code that would target all intentional shootings involving reckless disregard for the life or safety of others. Currently the offences available to prosecute these kinds of cases range from offences such as section 86, the careless use of a firearm, to section 244, the discharge of a firearm with intent to cause bodily harm. The negligence-based offences do not appropriately capture the seriousness of a drive-by scenario that involves consciously reckless conduct. Section 244, on the other hand, requires proof that the firearm was discharged at a particular person with a specific intent to cause bodily harm.

While the offence is clearly the more appropriate one if the shooter does have a particular target, it can sometimes be difficult to prove in a drive-by shooting scenario where the intent may be generally to intimidate a rival gang or the community. In many cases, the shooters may just be firing wildly, in any event, without a particular target. The proposed offence will fill a gap in the Criminal Code and provide a tailored response to this dangerous criminal activity.

This new offence requires that the accuseds specifically turn their minds to the fact that discharging their firearms would jeopardize the life or safety of another person, and appreciating this fact, they still went ahead. This offence would be punishable by a mandatory penalty of four years of imprisonment and a maximum of 14 years. The mandatory minimum penalty would be increased to five years if the offence were committed for the benefit of, or at the direction of, or in association with a criminal organization, or it involved the use of a prohibited or restricted firearm such as a handgun or automatic firearm. In addition, repeat offenders in these circumstances would be subject to a higher penalty, beginning at seven years of imprisonment.

A third area of reform is aimed at increasing the protection to police officers and to responding to violence committed against other justice system participants. It does this by creating two new offences to prohibit assaults causing bodily harm to police officers, or involving the use of a weapon and aggravated assaults against police officers. These offences would be punishable on indictment by a maximum imprisonment period of 10 and 14 years respectively. To ensure these offences are adequately punished, we have proposed amendments that would require a court, when sentencing an offender for any of the specific offences, to give primary consideration to the principles of denunciation and deterrence. The same principles would also apply to cases involving the intimidation of justice system participants, including judges, prosecutors, jurors, and many others who play a role in the criminal justice system.

Finally, the fourth area of reform proposed in Bill C-14 relates to the strengthening of the gang peace bond provision. These amendments would clarify that when issuing a reconnaissance order or a promise to keep the peace, judges may impose any conditions they feel are necessary to secure the good conduct of the defendant. The amendments would also provide for these orders to be extended past the normal one year up to 24 months if the defendant had been previously convicted of a criminal organization offence, or the intimidation of justice system participants offence, as well as a terrorism offence. These are important tools because they seek to prevent the commission of organized crime offences before they take place, and they are extremely useful for the police in controlling gang activity. These amendments will ensure that the orders are used as they are intended.

Mr. Chair, as I've said in the past, there can be no more important task for any government to undertake than the protection of its citizens. Bill C-14 will result in greater protection for Canadians everywhere. I think Canadians would like to see legislation like this passed, so I urge honourable members of this committee to work collaboratively and efficiently to ensure a speedy passage of this bill.

Thank you very much.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you, Minister.

We'll now go to the first questioner.

Mr. Dosanjh, you have seven minutes.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Thank you. I may finish early and split time with my other colleague here.

Mr. Minister, I'm not going to ask you any questions on Bill C-14. I have some other questions that I want to ask you, and I'm glad you're here.

You obviously know British Columbia made three requests when they came to see you, and they met with us as well. We said the Liberal Party of Canada supports their three requests. Recently other provinces--Saskatchewan, Alberta, and Manitoba--have added their voices to those three requests. I understand that some time ago Ontario was of the same view. Four other provinces in addition to British Columbia have added their voices to British Columbia's voice for those three changes, at least.

I'm going to focus on the change with respect to the wiretap and electronic surveillance request that British Columbia made. The other day before this committee we had the opportunity to hear from assistant commissioner of the RCMP, Mike Cabana, and he echoed his support for that request as well.

My question to you is very simple. You're moving on two for one, thank you. This particular organization of investigative techniques, MITA as it's called, was brought forward in 2005 by then Minister Anne McLellan. It died on the order paper. You don't have to do any more drafting. It's done. It's sitting there within the justice department. Why have you not moved on it? Why do you not think this is important for the police? They want to be able to apprehend or disrupt gang activity and they are at a disadvantage because of the state of the law in this area. It goes back over 30 years.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Mr. Dosanjh, if it really had been done in 2005, it would have been passed, wouldn't it?

But that's part of the lessons we've learned from that time. There were dozens of bills introduced in the minority government of which you were a member, and it was striking how little, if anything, got done during those years. My colleagues and I are determined that we're not going to fall into the same pit the previous government found itself in. When they figured out that some of these things were very difficult, that they were a problem, well, you know, you introduce the legislation and it dies on the order paper, hurrah. We don't want to get into that, so what I have indicated to you is that we are taking these one step at a time.

We've introduced this bill. You said you're not going to ask any questions. That's good. I hope that means it's going to get passed, get out of here, and get back into the House of Commons. I'd be delighted to see that. We've introduced this bill and we've introduced the bill with respect to drugs. These have received widespread support across the country.

Then, once I introduced the bill on drugs, you said, how about credit for time served? I suppose I could ask you why this wasn't done, as this has been a problem for years, but in any case, this government, of which I'm a member, will do it.

With respect to other issues, I'm quite sure that if I introduced a bill with respect to wiretaps, you wouldn't be happy. You'd say, what about something else? I appreciate that--

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Absolutely, I'm going to say, what about something else?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

You're in the business of--

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

That's my job.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'm in the business of getting these things passed, so I can tell you--

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I'm in opposition.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

--that I was with your colleagues in British Columbia on Friday, and they were delighted to see us move forward on the bill on credit for time served. I hope that will be dealt with expeditiously.

As I always say, and as I've said to my colleagues, we have an ambitious agenda and we're moving one step at a time. I can assure you that if you can get these bills passed, I have other legislation. I'm not announcing that today, but I have other justice legislation. Now that you're onside, hopefully, with these things and you've realized what a challenge changes to the criminal justice system are and how important these reforms are, I know that you'll stand up and applaud, as you must have been applauding on Friday when we introduced that bill on credit for time served.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Well, I'm actually surprised that you're filibustering the committee and not really answering the question. Why would you not answer the question? When are you going to move--

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I'll tell you why I'm not making any more announcements--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

When, sir? It's my--

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I don't want to fall into the same trap that your government fell into--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

It's my job to ask questions. It's yours to answer.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

--when nothing got passed.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Gentlemen--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

I'm not the minister.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you, gentlemen.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

It's my job--

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Mr. Dosanjh, just one moment. It's one person at a time.

Right now, we're going to have Mr. Dosanjh ask his question, and the minister can answer it. Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

My question to you, sir, is very direct: when are you going to move on the request of British Columbia, supported by Saskatchewan, Alberta, Manitoba, and Ontario, to change the wiretap and electronic surveillance provisions to make lawful access more effective? When are you going to move? That's the question.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rob Nicholson Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

I am not giving you a date today, Mr. Dosanjh, because I want to get the bills that are before you right now passed and then--

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC

Nobody is preventing the bills before us--