Justice Committee on March 30th, 2009

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That would be speculation at this point.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It's just that we are proposing—

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You have to have the facts in each case, it seems to me.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

But looking at it historically over the last few years, do we know how many of these crimes are gangland related?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

According to the statistics given to me, approximately 20% in this country were gangland related, and in British Columbia it is double that. It's up to 40%. Mr. Taylor, the counsel, has a breakdown of the statistics, and I would be glad to leave it with you.

Do you have anything to add, Mr. Taylor?

[Matthew Taylor, Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice]

If you are asking how many new charges....

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm aware of the 20% figure that's gangland related. What I'm asking, Mr. Taylor, is how many of those were second degree murder or manslaughter charges that are now going to be upgraded to first degree murder. Do we know that?

[Matthew Taylor]

In 2006, 74 murders of the 104 were first degree, 29 were second degree, and one was manslaughter. We have statistics going back to 2000. Looking at this historically, according to our Statistics Canada information, you are seeing an increase in both first degree and second degree murder rates.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We can give you that breakdown as well.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay.

The other problem, and I'm getting this from prosecutors, is both a legal one and a practical one. The legal one is the definition of an organized crime or organization and how closely we can tie that to the street gang. Is this street gang an organized crime organization under the definitions in the code? I don't see any attempt to try to clarify the language, Mr. Minister, in this legislation.

Second, and this is the more practical one, is that we don't have enough experts in the country who can say, yes, this group in the city of Vancouver, in the city of Toronto, is an organized crime group, and here's why. We've had evidence, Mr. Bartlett--and I know you're frowning about this--from witnesses from the province of Quebec about the shortage of witnesses they had. Again, I don't see anything, nor would I expect it in the legislation. But is there anything practically happening to increase the number of people who would be available to go into court and say, yes, this is an organized crime organization?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

First of all, let me say this. I don't think, strictly speaking, that it's us. Most of the administration and the prosecution of a case is done by provincial attorneys general, of course, in this country. In terms of the how and why and the resources they have, it's a little difficult for me to answer.

I'm sorry, the first part of your question was what?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

What is the legal definition?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Oh yes, it was the legal definition. I haven't had that much push-back, quite frankly, from provincial attorneys general. I appreciate the fact that you're raising the matter with me, but in terms of the priorities they've had, this hasn't been at the top of their list. But I appreciate the fact that you're raising it. If some crown attorneys across Canada are having a look at that, I'm certainly pleased to have a look at it.

Did you have any comment?

[Matthew Taylor]

It is a difficult question you raise, and I think you're right that the legislative answer might not be the best one. What we do know is that street gangs are being successfully prosecuted under the criminal organization offences. It's not frequent, but we have had successful prosecutions in Quebec, for example, and in British Columbia as well.

I think the other side of the equation is to build on that experience by having the training and support necessary to help articulate the fact that the criminal organization offences can be used to go after these loosely organized street gangs.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

But we've had problems. We've had at least one superior court that would not make the finding that a biker gang was an organized crime group. We've had two other ones. Ontario and Quebec have come on, although there was a lot of doubt as to whether we were going to be successful in Ontario in that one case. I think it was the case in Barrie. They ultimately were, but it was nip and tuck.

I'm a bit surprised that you haven't heard from the attorneys general, Mr. Minister, but I'll leave it at that. I'll leave it with you to look at.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

To be fair to the attorneys general, we get a long, long list, and appropriately so, of all the different issues that face provincial prosecutors. In terms of where most of the attention has been focused, that hasn't been one of them, but that's not to say that it may not be a focus of attention in the future.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Going to the section that amends the recognizance, again, I know I'm playing statistics, but is there any sense of how much more we'll be able to use this? I saw this as a significant improvement in terms of preventing crime by controlling gang members at an early stage. Do you have any idea of how many cases we're going to use?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's just one more tool, it seems to me, that a judge has. Up to now, traditionally--and this is really across the board, quite frankly, in the justice system--we had a 12-month bond. When we have increased it in other cases, it's generally been well received. We have it up to 24 months, because by the time you get these procedures in place and you get there, time marches on. I think it would be difficult to predict how many people would get the 24 as opposed to the 12. The 12 may be appropriate in some circumstances. Again, it'll be up to judicial discretion to decide if that's appropriate in terms of trying to modify or direct the behaviour of an individual.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Practically, in terms of using the bracelets to locate on an ongoing basis, are you hearing about any problems at the provincial level on the availability of that technology across the country? Let me assume there's going to be a 10% to 20% increase in the number of cases in which we're going to use them. Is there any indication that we have the ability to deal with it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Give a short answer, please.

Go ahead, Mr. Bartlett.

[William Bartlett]

There are certainly some areas where the technology is probably not readily available to local police forces. It's one of the reasons this provision requires that the Attorney General make the request for that particular condition. It's to ensure that the necessary facilities are available in that area. Certainly, it's growing across Canada, particularly in urban areas. I think you're going to see more and more of it becoming available in the coming years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll move on to Mr. Rathgeber. You have seven minutes as well.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, and to your officials, for your appearance here today. I'd certainly like to congratulate you on not only Bill C-14, but also Bill C-15, and I think Bill C-25, which are the two-for-one provisions that were introduced last week. As you know, I'm a strong proponent of all of these measures.

I'll follow up on a question that my friend Mr. Comartin asked with respect to the recognizances. I'm certainly familiar, and it's certainly been my experience in domestic violence situations that peace bonds and recognizances have been quite successful in protecting victims. I was wondering if you might be able to illustrate some examples, anecdotal or otherwise, of how the proposed changes will provide better protection for the public.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, thank you very much.

Thank you very much for your support of these initiatives. Indeed, I could extend that to your colleagues as well. It's not easy to get criminal law legislation passed in this country; we know that from the last Parliament. Again, all your efforts to get this and indeed the other pieces of legislation we have are much appreciated. I appreciate your comments with respect to the bill for credit for time served.

We know that when there is violent or unacceptable behaviour, sometimes these things can't be fixed, righted, or modified. I think there has been a consensus developed that when you're putting these peace bonds--and you gave the example of domestic issues--24 months can be the appropriate measure. One of the good things it does in cases like this is that it means you're not immediately back in court in 12 months, or I suppose 10 months, to try to get it extended. For a person who is the subject of this, if they have a record of violence or threats--and indeed that's what we're talking about here in the criminal law with respect to criminal or gang activity--we give that discretion to a judge to say that it may be more appropriate to have it up to 24 months in terms of trying to control or modify the behaviour of certain individuals.

I think this is an idea whose time has come, quite frankly. I mentioned in my response to Mr. Comartin, or perhaps it was Monsieur Ménard, that I think the 24 months works better. It gives one more tool to the judiciary, and I think it's an appropriate one, be it in a domestic dispute, or in this case trying to handle or modify gang-related activity.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

At this table and elsewhere, when we discuss criminal law and criminal justice, often the focus is on the accused and their rights. Of course the system has built-in safeguards--the preponderance of evidence, and the onus on the state. As you know, the charter gave a whole bunch more rights. Through all that, it often concerns me that the rights of victims are frequently neglected in that process and, quite frankly, in that debate. Victims are not well represented. There's no national association or lobby of criminal victims. They lack the resources, and quite frankly, they lack the voice.

With respect to the accused and the defender, we talk about deterrence and rehabilitation. I congratulate the government again with respect to the victims' ombudsman, which was created during the 39th Parliament.

Minister, my specific question is with respect to making sure the victims of crime are heard and consulted, and with respect to consultation, not only for Bill C-14 but for your other initiatives generally.