Evidence of meeting #18 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
6:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
We've run out of time here. You're a minute and a half over. I'm being flexible.
Let's move on to Monsieur Ménard for five minutes.
6:30 p.m.
Bloc
Réal Ménard Bloc Hochelaga, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will make a comment on Bill C-15, to Mr. Fassbender.
Obviously, the goal of today's consultation is not to discuss Bill C-15, but it makes sense to address it. I hope that no one is under the impression that just because we plan to pass Bill C-15, that you, as mayors, will have additional arrows in your quivers.
Earlier, Mr. Cessford was saying that you will have 500 additional prisoners and prisons holding 6,500 prisoners. If Bill C-15 were to be adopted, a person responsible for growing three marijuana plants—located next to a school—would receive a sentence of two years in prison. I'm not convinced that socially, municipalities need to have these measures. The problem, as far as Bill C-15 is concerned, is that no distinction is made between minor marijuana offences and the king pins of the underground drug world. This is the clarification I wanted to make, with all due respect to Mr. Watson. I believe that municipalities do not need these types of measures.
Mayor Fassbender raised a point that has yet to be made by any other witness up until now. His point concerns tax legislation.
I'd like for us to talk again about the proposal you made. I would like our research analysts to get more information on this subject. You seem to imply that the Canada Revenue Agency could intervene in matters of marijuana growing operations, large hydroponic operations. You talked about $300,000. That's a lot of money.
Please remind us of the concrete measures you would like to see implemented in this area.
6:35 p.m.
Mayor, City of Langley
If I may, I'll deflect this down the table to Mr. Garis. I know that a lot of the documentation and the calculations are in the material that will be provided to you.
Len, did you want to speak to that?
April 30th, 2009 / 6:35 p.m.
Len Garis Chief, Surrey Fire Services
Absolutely.
I believe it was a recommendation in 2003 by the national coordinating committee, under the Liberal government at that time, to create a relationship between police forces and Revenue Canada for the reporting of illegal drug operations. That in fact took place. However, it's grossly understaffed, and there's no requirement for police organizations to report every file associated with drug production. And that's what's being suggested here.
Our conservative estimates on the size of plants.... We know the size of marijuana grow operations on average in the province of British Columbia. The average is 250 plants. We know the number of actual crops per year. And we know fairly conservatively, or a good estimate, what they're achieving in revenue on this.
The personal audit system that CRA actually applies is four years back into their history of paying taxes. And if their assets don't match their tax returns, then those are audited and collected.
I want to mention something to you about how effective this principle is. A number of years ago we actually entertained a civilian administrative process for interrupting marijuana grow operations in the city of Surrey. In the last four years we've interrupted 1,600 grow-ops in our city.
We did a study on what was the propensity of the grower to re-establish another grow. Prior to us bringing in a bylaw that required us to recover all of our costs, conduct remediation on the property and bring it back to code while removing the occupancy permit, what we found was that the growers would re-establish. But after we brought in our bylaw that required all of these service costs associated with running that grow, removing the occupancy and making them invest money in bringing the home back up to safety standards, nobody came back. So we know the principle of applying costs associated with doing the business is actually going to make them leave.
I would like to say one last thing. We recently completed a study of marijuana grow operations from 1997 until the end of 2008. We haven't quite put it to ink yet, but this initiative I'm talking about in the city of Surrey has seen a 60% decrease in the communities that are active in these types of ancillary programs. We have moved them out of the lower mainland. The unfortunate thing is that they're moving elsewhere.
The initiatives that we've brought before you today, which may seem somewhat soft, are ones that we know do work, and we know they're multi-faceted, so please give this your attention.
Thank you.
6:40 p.m.
Conservative
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Thank you.
I don't really have much of a question. I want you to comment on something I'm going to say.
I don't really mean to be partisan, but it seems that most of us, when we ask questions, half of our time is taken up with our own commercials before we ask you the question.
When Wally Oppal and John van Dongen went to Ottawa, they had several proposals, but the three main proposals that stood out in my mind were remand credit, two for one; disclosure, or disclosure codification; electronic surveillance, which is a combination of easily accessible warrants and the capacity of the telecommunications companies--or at least a compulsion on them--to provide that easy and quick access and the technology that's required, which they can provide.
I know my colleagues on the other side might be upset if I said it took actually four to five weeks of consistent questions being asked in the House by someone like me and others to move the minister opposite on the issue of the two-for-one credit. The government still has not moved on the issue of disclosure codification or on electronic surveillance, easy warrants, or compelling the companies to provide the technology.
In 2005 our government had brought this bill forward. It died because of the election, particularly with respect to electronic surveillance. You could go back to that bill and instantaneously actually bring that forward. All I'm saying is we're on your side. We want you to stand up and yell and scream at all of us to get it done. These are some of the things that can be done very quickly. I'm not asking you to be partisan. You don't have to name anyone, just shout at all of us. It's been effective. Wally Oppal went there, van Dongen went there, and it was effective.
What I'm saying to you is on some of those creative solutions you have that you proposed, you've got to press us to move on them. I would leave it at that. I'm not going to ask a question. If you want to comment on it, fine. I'm not asking you to make partisan comments.
Thank you.
6:40 p.m.
Mayor, City of Surrey
Thank you.
I will make a comment, because this is precisely the problem that we face in our communities. We don't want to be partisan, but this going on back and forth and back and forth is ridiculous. All we want is some help. All we want is to make sure that our community is safe, that we have the measures to put these people behind bars, and to give people the help that they need and get on with life.
But this constantly going back and forth.... As we said before, these issues aren't new. For the past I don't know how many years--I'm going to say a dozen years--all of these issues have been brought up. We will continue to pound the table, we will continue to move forward, but I'd really like to just see the politics be left at the door and people come together for the municipalities, the cities, and the people of this country.
6:40 p.m.
Liberal
Ujjal Dosanjh Liberal Vancouver South, BC
Let me ask you another question, and I know this is a difficult one. I know Mayor Robertson has left, so in his absence let me ask you a question. Why is there such rabid resistance to the idea of a regional police force among many of you?
6:40 p.m.
Mayor of the Corporation of Delta; Chair of the Board of Directors, Mayors' Committee, Metro Vancouver
We all want to answer that.
6:45 p.m.
Mayor of the Corporation of Delta; Chair of the Board of Directors, Mayors' Committee, Metro Vancouver
I think the police chief from Delta probably has a few things to say about that.
6:45 p.m.
Chief Constable, Corporation of Delta
In my view, with all respect, that's a political solution to a public safety issue, and that doesn't work. Regionalization has not worked in the United Kingdom. It has not worked in Canada. It has been a huge failure everywhere.
Bigger is not better. What regionalization does is cause a disconnect between the police and their communities, and we're not trying to disconnect; we're trying to close the gap. That's a huge issue for all of us. Police and community working together is the best way. That's what we're talking about with community-based policing--working with our communities.
There's a difference here that we have to understand: there's specialized policing that deals with the complex organized gang issues and there's working with our communities. This is not all about gangs. Somebody has to go to the fatal motor vehicle accidents. Somebody has to go to the break and enter, the theft from auto, and the stolen bicycles. There are different areas here.
This is not about regionalization. It's about putting some funding into specialized policing to deal with the complex things. We'll look after our communities, thank you very much. We can do that.
Also, and I say this with all respect, you talked to Mayor Watts about Bill C-15, but the picking away at and the piecemeal approach to the laws is not the answer. I think what we're saying, and what everybody and all of these groups are saying, is why don't we take a minute to step back and look at the law to see what's working and what isn't working? Then we can attack the problem holistically rather than with a one-year minimum sentence for marijuana grow-ops of more than 500 plants.
We still have to deal with disclosure. We still have to deal with lawful access and all of those things. In my view, those are the big-ticket issues that would serve us well, but regionalization is just not the solution. Again, it's never worked anywhere else, so why would we do it now?
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Thank you.
We'll move on to Ms. Grewal. You have five minutes, and you'll be the last questioner.
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
Nina Grewal Conservative Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I have a question for Mr. Garis.
Mr. Garis, you said that marijuana grow-ops are a problem in Surrey and the surrounding communities and are often found in expensive homes in nice neighbourhoods. What special dangers do these homes present to the firefighters? Could you please explain?
6:45 p.m.
Chief, Surrey Fire Services
Thank you very much for asking that question. It gives me an opportunity to explain to members of the committee why a fire chief is sitting in front of them and testifying on organized crime in British Columbia.
In 2003, 2004, and 2005 in our community, our firefighters were attending 1.3 fires per month that were caused by marijuana grow-ops. That's 15 to 16 a year. They had concerns and started to treat every structure fire like a grow-op. They were concerned about entering those homes in a smoke-filled environment. They were concerned about getting shocked or electrocuted, which they had been, but not fatally. They were concerned about dealing with that kind of environment.
They were concerned about arriving in the middle of the night and finding two and three houses on fire, or being impinged on by fire, because a house was set on fire by a grow-op and nobody was in attendance so nobody called it in. They were concerned about trying to evacuate homes where people were sleeping; they were concerned about trying to get them out.
Those were the things that got us involved in doing public safety inspections, which started in the city of Abbotsford and the city of Surrey in 2005. Since then, we've been using this as a preventative tool. We changed the laws in British Columbia to require the hydro authority to disclose to the local government hydro records that were three times the normal amount, and we initiated inspections using the Local Government Act, the Fire Services Act, and the electrical Safety Standards Act to request permission to--
6:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Excuse me for just one moment, please.
There will be no private discussions. I think we should pay attention to our witnesses. Thank you.
Go ahead, Mr. Garis.
6:45 p.m.
Chief, Surrey Fire Services
So on that premise we started conducting safety inspections of homes that provided us with the threshold of electrical consumption or about which there were complaints from the neighbourhood. During that course of time, when we started, one in four of these homes had children present, and the homes were filled with mould, fertilizers, pesticides, and electrical wiring and ballasts. We were attending those as a preventative measure.
Since we started this program in 2005, as I indicated before, we have inspected and remediated 1,006 homes in our city. Since then, eleven other communities have come on board and started these safety inspections to make our homes safe. This was a public safety initiative.
I also want to remind the group--as the chair mentioned--that I need to connect this back to organized crime. What we heard before--and it's something I never wanted to know as a fire officer--is that 85% of marijuana that's grown in the province of British Columbia is connected to organized crime. So if you say there aren't safety issues, Bill C-15, I think, is good. But let's define what aggravation is in terms of growing it.
We did a study, and a home with a grow-op is 24 times more likely to catch fire than a home without one. We experienced that big time.
In Philadelphia there were two firefighters who were killed when they went into the basement of a home that had a grow-op, and they became entangled and suffocated trying to get out of there. It was only a matter of time before that was going to occur here in British Columbia, and we had to do something.
So why did we get involved? We talked about tougher sentencing and disclosure. In 1997 police got to 92% of the complaints that came to their attention, and they were able to interrupt them. At that time only 1.5% of grow-ops were discovered by way of a fire. In 2003--and we're going to find out something new for 2008--they were able to get to only 52% of them. Why? Because in 1997 it took three steps to get a search warrant. In 2003 it takes 68 steps to get a search warrant. So that protraction of time meant that these homes were sitting in our neighbourhoods for years before they could get to them. Those electrical systems would start to interrupt, fray, and break down. In some homes we found electrical systems in which the wiring had to be entirely stripped because it was so fragile and damaged. So that's what we're dealing with. And this is all predicated on marijuana, that $7 billion industry in British Columbia that's fostering organized crime.
If you want to look at a root cause, at where the money is coming from and why it's so profitable, we have created an environment--not directly--in which they can basically propagate, and make their money. That's where our gang-land crime is coming from.
So I would say that these initiatives may look soft, but we've proven that they work, and we've made a significant difference. These are the tools we would like you to take a serious look at and provide for us.
Thank you so much for your questions.
6:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
We're done.
I just want to thank all of you for coming, especially the mayors. And I want to echo Mr. Murphy's comments. Being a former city counsellor out in Abbotsford, I know the kinds of challenges you face. You've come up with some amazing, creative solutions that the federal government and the provincial governments weren't able to address in a timely manner, and you adapted anyway. We did in Abbotsford as well, actually, following Surrey's lead initially. So thank you for the tip.
In any event, I have one point and one question I want to leave with you. First of all, you made a big pitch for more federal financial support in terms of policing, especially in terms of regional policing.
6:50 p.m.
Mayor of the Corporation of Delta; Chair of the Board of Directors, Mayors' Committee, Metro Vancouver
It was specialized forces.
6:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
But we also heard evidence from the array of police officials here earlier this afternoon that if in fact we addressed the codified disclosure issue, it would free up 30% more resources. That would go a long way toward solving some of your problems.
And I can tell you that the minister is looking very carefully at disclosure, as well as at the lawful access issues, but we have a ton of legislation right now that's already making its way through Parliament. And he's made it very clear he does want to see that progress before he introduces new legislation.
My question to you--and it's just a yes-or-no type of question--is this. Earlier we had quite a handful of witnesses who came here and made it very clear that they believe the solution, or at least the partial solution, to addressing the organized crime issue in our communities is not to decriminalize marijuana; it's to legalize marijuana--and not only marijuana, but a whole lot of other hard drugs, like cocaine, crystal meth, and heroin.