Justice Committee on April 30th, 2009

[Weldon LeBlanc, Chief Executive Officer, Kelowna Chamber of Commerce]

Thank you.

The Kelowna Chamber of Commerce is a membership business organization representing 1,500 members. One of the primary roles of our organization is to bring the concerns of our members to decision-makers like you. On behalf of the board of directors and our members, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to present our challenges to you today and to talk about the role the Kelowna Chamber of Commerce is playing in addressing the issue of crime in our community.

As you may know, Kelowna is one of the most vibrant economies in British Columbia. Located in the southern interior of British Columbia, Kelowna is the largest city in the Okanagan Valley, with a growing population of 110,000 people. With a very diverse economy, our city features a wide range of industries, including agriculture, forestry, manufacturing, high technology, aerospace, and tourism. Kelowna has been rated among the most competitive places to do business in the Pacific region of North America. Kelowna is also home to one of the top ten airports in Canada, by passenger volume. It serves over one million domestic and international passengers annually.

The quality of life in the Okanagan is outstanding, featuring attractions such as golf, ski hills and resorts, vineyards and wineries, and fine dining. Tourism in the region is growing, and both Tourism Kelowna and Kelowna International Airport are looking to expand their facilities and services to accommodate increasing visitor volumes.

I tell you this not so much to boast about what our city has to offer. Sadly, these are the same attributes that attract criminals involved in organized crime to our community. My message to you today is that organized crime is not just a large city issue. It is established in bustling mid-sized cities like Kelowna, as well.

The Kelowna RCMP detachment is the third-busiest in Canada. As a community, we are faced with a sophisticated criminal element that uses sophisticated technology and sophisticated weaponry. Organized crime activity is increasing. The Hells Angels established a full chapter in Kelowna in 2007. In addition, we have established gangs, such as the Red Scorpions, the Independent Soldiers, and the Kingpins. The RCMP have also noted that a number of other gangs are operating under the radar in our community.

On January 26 of this year, two people involved in gang activity were shot in mid-afternoon by a rival gang member at a car rental agency. To quote a media report, schools in the area implemented lockdown procedures.

In February of this year, the RCMP announced the formation of a 16-person gang unit for Kelowna to combat organized crime. The RCMP's organized crime intelligence branch has identified the Okanagan region as an ideal location for organized crime activity. The bustling economy, high real estate values, close proximity to Calgary and Vancouver, and our close proximity to the U.S. border make the Okanagan attractive to organized crime groups as a key distribution point for drug trafficking.

In March of this year, for the first time, Kelowna had the dubious distinction of making the top-20 list of Canada's deadliest cities, as compiled by Maclean's magazine in its annual survey. Earlier this week, a crackdown on car theft netted one of B.C.'s top-10 most-wanted car thieves, who was operating in Kelowna.

I'm not proud to share this information with you today. I could have filled this presentation with pages of stats. The negative impact of crime on business is well documented. Instead, I want to share with you real-life examples of what we're dealing with today and what we, as a business organization, are doing to address crime.

The Kelowna Chamber of Commerce is working to combat the negative effects of organized crime and crime in general, and we believe that you have a role in helping us. Working closely with the Kelowna RCMP and community stakeholders, the Kelowna chamber has taken a broad approach to addressing crime in our community.

The issues relating to crime and the justice system are complex and overlapping. In our efforts to address these issues in our community, we're packaging these issues as a continuum of justice that encompasses the following five key areas: organized crime; the need for additional prosecutors; dealing with chronic offenders; exploring community court; and the need for correctional facilities.

First, with respect to the organized crime task force, I want to talk about one of our successes. For more than a year, the Kelowna Chamber has lobbied government for the establishment of an organized crime task force for Kelowna. We developed a policy resolution, which was adopted by the B.C. Chamber of Commerce and the Canadian Chamber of Commerce, calling for such a task force to be in centres such as Kelowna. In February of this year, that was announced. This unit will provide the necessary resources for investigating and curbing organized crime activities in the Okanagan.

The second area is additional prosecutors. In our meetings with the RCMP, it's been identified that a key challenge for the justice system is the lack of prosecutors to deal with the increased crackdown on crime activities. Court dates for bringing criminals to justice are now being booked for 2010. The Kelowna chamber has met with the provincial Solicitor General and provincial finance minister to address this need.

In recent meetings we've had with the Kelowna RCMP, the Vancouver Police Department, and with chambers and boards of trade in the lower mainland, targeting the negative impact of chronic offenders has been identified as a primary focus in reducing crime in communities. In discussions with the Kelowna RCMP, they've identified 200 chronic offenders and have noted that these people are responsible for the majority of crimes against business. The message is very straightforward. When you remove chronic offenders from the street, you reduce crime.

The Kelowna chamber is working with community stakeholders to address a community court model. This pilot project is in place in Vancouver, and we're watching it very closely.

In terms of corrections facilities, it has been acknowledged that we do need more corrections facilities to address incarceration. According to Superintendent McKinnon of the Kelowna RCMP, in 2007 they housed in excess of 6,000 prisoners, and in 2008 they exceeded that with 6,500 prisoners. The cell blocks are typically full to capacity.

Going to my conclusion, we will continue to work to address these areas: organized crime, the need for more prosecutors, the need for corrections facilities, the need for our community court to reduce the strain on our justice system, and the need to address the issue of chronic offenders.

To conclude, I want to reinforce the following messages. Crime is an issue in mid-sized cities as well as larger centres. Crime has a direct negative impact on business and the economy. We need to address sentencing for chronic offenders to reduce crime.

On behalf of the members of the Kelowna Chamber of Commerce, thank you for this opportunity to discuss our concerns with you today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move now to questions from members. As you formulate your answers, please keep in mind that this is an organized crime study, so try to make sure the answers are focused on that particular problem.

We'll go with Mr. Dhaliwal for seven minutes.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank all the panel members who have come out today, and for their work, particularly Chief Cessford, Fire Chief Len Garis, and Ray Hudson, because those are the people from my community, where I'm raising my family and where I used to run my business. My business is still running there.

I would also like to welcome you, Your Worships. Two of the mayors are from the riding I represent, the communities of Surrey and Delta.

Mr. Chair, I would like to direct my first question to Her Worship Mayor Dianne Watts, because she talked about a crime reduction strategy that she brought forward. It is a wonderful approach and one I have talked about in the House. This is the first action plan to design an integrated approach involving all levels of government. I see the consensus among all the mayors here is for tough and effective laws, education, prevention, social programs, and more police funding. She addresses most of those concerns in the strategy.

At the time you brought in this crime prevention strategy, Your Worship, the federal government, this Conservative government, was talking about putting 2,500 new police officers on the ground, and that has never occurred. Talking to the police associations and communities across this country, that has drastically fallen short.

There used to be a 70-30 funding model in place for officers that no longer exists. Is this why you feel there is a shortfall?

[Dianne L. Watts]

There are a number of things involved. Whether it's the RCMP or the municipal forces, we do not have the capability of funding police officers to deal with organized crime—and that's what's occurring.

I think the federal government said it would be putting 2,500 police officers across Canada, but the issue there is that the province has to come up with matching funding. So it's up to the province again to determine if they want those officers and how to access them. I think we received 168 officers the province was willing to pay for over the entire province of British Columbia, if my recollection is correct. That's a drop in the bucket for us.

If you look at any one homicide, it depends on the complexity of the investigation. When you talk about organized crime, you're talking about starting the investigation at a municipal level and following the investigation from there. It could take you across Canada, down to the United States, or wherever; and the fact of the matter is that it's being funded by us, the municipalities. We're trying to get those resources and those police officers in place, but for the municipal forces, we're all paying 100% of the dollars, when there should be a 70-30 split right across the board for all of us.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

My next question is for both Mayor Watts and Mayor Jackson.

Recently, as you are aware, the Attorney General of British Columbia went to Ottawa and Parliament to talk about bringing in legislative changes—besides the issue of not having enough police officers on the front line. Of the requests the Attorney General made, which ones do you see as the highest priority and consistent with the efforts being made by the metro Vancouver mayors committee?

[Lois E. Jackson]

It's hard for us to prioritize when we don't have the requests in front of us, Mr. Dhaliwal.

I am concerned because I don't have the list before me, but I think we can safely say that every one of our 22 mayors in the lower mainland is absolutely committed to the comments made in Ottawa by the Attorney General and Solicitor General. As you know, the premier has made some very marked comments relative to many of the things involved. He had a major announcement here last month, and we support that.

I think it's going to take all three—and four—levels of government to put our heads together and go over these step by step. This is what we're attempting at the regional level; we're going over the entire list you mentioned, the list that the premier had put forward, and the list that all of the mayors are putting forward. Each of us has a different community. We have different inflections, as you might know, and we want to make sure we're covering all of the bases. That's what we're doing regionally.

Which one is the most important? Is it prevention? Is it the judiciary? Is it the facilities? For example, we need a remand centre really badly in the lower mainland. We have to work together on all of these things.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Mayor Watts, do you want to add to that?

And, Chief Cessford, you had something you wanted to comment on too.

[Dianne L. Watts]

When they went to Ottawa, I think there were two things they were particularly focusing on, the disclosure requirements and wiretaps. Those are significant. If we look at any investigation.... The one I always go back to and look at is the McMynn kidnapping in Vancouver, which took eight police officers working full-time for a year on disclosure documents before charges could even be laid. That is absolutely onerous, because it's taking those police officers away from doing what they need to be doing. They have to streamline that. Also, around the possession of illegal firearms, we have to get the firearms off the street. Those were the things they went forward with.

We support that. All of the metro mayors support those initiatives, which are key. But again, I go back to the fact that these are key right now because we're dealing with the problem. If you want to effect change, if you want generational change for our children so they don't get into gang activity, then you must have preventive and educational measures in place. If you look at the age of the children—I call them children because most of us are getting on in age—they're in their late teens and early twenties. They're out there involved in trafficking, extortion, murder, and all of those things in organized crime. There has to be a piece there as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Cessford, I'll give you 30 seconds to respond.

[Jim Cessford, Chief Constable, Corporation of Delta]

I will be very quick.

Lawful access and disclosure are big things for all of us. I know that the Attorney General and the Solicitor General were very concerned about those two things. Maybe we'll get a chance to talk in a little while.

Mayor Watts talks about the costs for the police to fight organized crime; they're prohibitive. There just isn't any way for us to be able to deal with that. I'm talking about the police or the municipalities.

If I can, I'll give just a quick example of one group. The police had integrated a specialized policing investigation on a well-known gang group here in the lower mainland. They took about 25, 30, 35 gang members and they all flew to Mexico. They chartered an aircraft, they went there, and they got involved with many things while they were in Mexico. There isn't any way that the Surrey RCMP, the Delta Police, or the Langley RCMP--or all of us, for that matter--can deal with that type of cost. You can only imagine what the cost for that would be.

That's just one example. There are several others.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Monsieur Ménard, you have seven minutes.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

I'm going to speak French.

Do you have the translation channel?

I would like to make a comment and ask two questions.

First, under the Criminal Code, since 1997, there are sections on mandatory minimum sentences with respect to firearms, which were revisited in 2008 through Bill C-2. Currently, there are minimum sentences. I personally do not believe that we are going to win the war against organized crime because the Criminal Code provides for minimum sentences. The proof lies in the fact that some minimum sentences have been in the Code for the last 10 years, and in my opinion, they are not the right solution. That is my first comment.

This morning, we had an exchange with Mr. Macintyre from the RCMP. I was very pleased when I tabled my motion with the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights calling for the committee to travel to Vancouver with a view to understanding what exactly is going on. I am a member from Montreal. In 1995, a 13-year-old boy in my riding was killed by a biker gang. Following that, anti-gang legislation was introduced.

I had the impression, seeing things from the outside, that Vancouver was experiencing what Montreal went through a decade ago. Things are different there, I understand the nuances, because the RCMP explained them to us, but there are similarities nonetheless. I want to understand what is going on. I believe that we need more police officers, prosecutors with expert knowledge of street gang issues and more resources to carry out investigations.

I would like to see the committee incorporate the following points into its report. To my mind, you need at least five years to win this battle. In Quebec, 156 people were arrested and 111 of them were members of the Hells Angels. The investigation lasted three and a half years. This has little to do with disclosure, and more to do with the specific nature of this type of inquiry. I would be inclined to think that this committee should recommend a federal government fund dedicated exclusively to Vancouver, and not all provinces. When I refer to Vancouver, I mean British Columbia, of course.

If the government were to ask you how much money is required in that fund, what would it be? I know that a mayor may tend to automatically overstate the amount, because the needs are great. Earlier, Madam Mayor told us that having only 68 police officers for all of British Columbia was insufficient.

If we were to recommend the creation of a fund that would allow you to hire more prosecutors, police officers, and refine your investigative tools and means over a period of five years, would you be in a position to table a supporting document, with the assistance of your police services, containing a recommended amount of money? Are we talking about $15 million or $20 million?

I believe that there should be a fund for a period of five years, and that it must be targeted. This is the first time we are talking about this. I don't know, when we reach the final report stage, if my colleagues will be in agreement with me, but this is what I intend to advocate. I'm not talking about a fund for all provinces. You are experiencing a very particular situation that is not as acute in other provinces.

Earlier, Mr. Macintyre told us that in 2009, there will probably be a higher number of deaths related to street gangs in Vancouver than in Toronto. This is an indicator of the magnitude of your unique challenge. You need to be supported financially, and not with minimum sentences. If you had been able to win the battle with minimum sentences, it would have already been won. Does anyone want to commit to endorsing this idea of a fund, and provide an order of magnitude? Perhaps the Vancouver mayor has some ideas on this.

[Gregor Robertson]

It's an interesting concept to focus a fund on a five-year strategy to eradicate the gangs. We have many similarities with Montreal in the nineties, though our situation is more complex. The estimate is 120 to 130 different gangs, smaller gangs of all shapes and sizes, ethnicities, backgrounds. It's a complex landscape, difficult to police.

As for resources, when compared with Toronto or Montreal, in respect of police per capita, we are about 450 short of Toronto and about 900 short of Montreal. To come up to metro Toronto's level of policing, I'd say we'd need to add about 500 police. If it's a five-year strategy, that's about $50 million a year, based on $100,000 per sworn officer. So it's a significant investment.

As Mayor Watts mentioned, we're all for carrying our share of the expenses. This is a significant additional investment that needs to be made. In Vancouver, we don't have a share being covered by the federal government right now. I think it would be a worthwhile conversation to pursue. If it's a 70-30 formula for policing generally, and we have federal and provincial support, and we're able to make the case that, as municipalities, this is an investment, I think we're still looking at a challenge.

[Réal Ménard, Bloc, Hochelaga, QC]

Do I have enough time for a second question?

This morning, the RCMP commanding officer made a rather surprising statement that is worthy of delving into. Pardon me, I am mistaken, he was not a commanding officer of the RCMP, but an expert with the Senior Force Management. There's a difficulty regarding megatrials. In Montreal, trials have been won because there were various charges laid against 50, 75 or 100 people.

The person who spoke this morning seemed to be saying that holding megatrials poses difficulties. Is it because of a lack of resources? I truly believe that trials will not be won if several of the accused persons are not brought before the court at the same time.

Could someone help us understand the problem you have in this province with regard to megatrials? Is your Solicitor General reluctant to accept this idea? Is it a matter of resources? We're trying to understand.

[Jim Cessford]

I don't think there's any problem with our holding mega-trials here. The big problem would be funding. But I think we're geared up and ready to go. We could hold bigger trials. With the Surrey Six, maybe we'll start to see it on a smaller scale.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm going to play devil's advocate.

You're coming to the federal government and you're saying we should do these things. But the reality is that it was your communities that allowed the shortage of police officers to occur. I'm throwing this as an accusation, and I'd like a response. How did it happen? Your growth rate here was no greater than Calgary's or Edmonton's. Their ratio of police officers is in keeping with the national average for cities of this size. I'm not trying to be combative here, but I'd like to know how it happened that we got so far behind.

Mr. Cessford, as for the mega-trials, it's a question of dollars. Basically, if there are more than five accused, we can't afford to do a mega-trial. There's a funding shortage here, which we're not seeing nearly as severely in the rest of the country. But how did this develop here? What can we do collectively? Mr. Ménard has raised the issue of the fund. I think it makes some sense. I know you should be getting additional resources. I have no problem with saying that, because I think that's the reality. But we are going to need a plan to get the numbers of your police forces up to snuff.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mayor Jackson, and then Mayor Fassbender.

[Lois E. Jackson]

I'll take the opportunity to try to respond to that.

I would say probably eight or nine years ago the great grey wave came. That means there were unprecedented numbers of officers who were retiring. We had a huge problem with that in the Delta police force, and we had to obviously take that into account when we were going out, finding the young people who wanted to be trained in the Justice Institute and then had to be mentored by someone in the department as they were coming through the ranks.

That has happened all across the country. I think it has been left unsaid that the great grey wave, as we have seen so many retire, has had a huge impact. I think it's even worse for the RCMP. And maybe you have all the money you need in the whole world, but how fast can you get them trained in Regina and get them out here working on a mentorship basis? And I think you can—

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mayor Jackson, let me interrupt you, then. If that is the case, and I know how long it takes to turn the training around—

[Lois E. Jackson]

Exactly.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In fact we hear from the government currently that it has promised 1,500 additional RCMP officers, and it has performed on that. The reality is that all it did was replace the existing ones. We have not had a net gain of RCMP officers in the country. We got those 1,500. We needed those because of the retirements.

[Lois E. Jackson]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So what I'm trying to get at is this. How do we replace those officers? How do you expect we're going to be able to do it in a relatively short period of time?

[Lois E. Jackson]

Again, it's the responsibility of those who are overseeing the RCMP and the training of new recruits. Independent police—and Vancouver and Delta are two, including Abbotsford and some of the others—go out and interview. We look for people in our own municipalities, and we train our own people at the Justice Institute, which is a very fine facility. So we're dealing with it in a different manner, because we can.

If Surrey needs 300 police officers and the RCMP can only give them 225, they get 225. If there aren't enough to fill the gap, then we're short officers on the street even though there may be money in the budget to pay for them.