Evidence of meeting #40 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was montreal.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I heard at one point—you'll tell me if I'm wrong—that the mafia had much better international relations than the Hells Angels. The mafia in fact acts as a wholesaler, whereas the Hells Angels control the retail market.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
The mafia definitely have more experience and more contacts at the international level than the Hells Angels, but that doesn't prevent the Hells Angels from having certain contacts outside the country that enable them to import goods.
Journalist, As an Individual
As Jean-Pierre Lévesque said, it's an uncertain period right now, but at the height of the war between the Hells Angels and Rock Machine, the two leaders of those groups were respectful of Vito Rizzuto. That gives the impression that things are different now because the situation is very uncertain, but the Italian mafia are at the top, followed by the Hells Angels and the street gangs.
It's true that the street gangs take up a lot of room because the mafia and the Hells Angels have been shaken. For the moment, there's a management problem within the mafia. Who's taking over from Vito Rizzuto and Nick Rizzuto, if ever there is a need for succession? Vito Rizzuto will be coming back to Canada in 2012. We heard that Agostino Cuntrera, who I talked about earlier, could become the leader. There's also a guy named Montana that the Bonanno family has sent to Montreal. However, neither is managing to establish his leadership.
When Vito was arrested in 2004 to be extradited to the United States, he told police officers who were in the car with him to watch out for the rise of the street gangs. The fact that the mafia was shaken has created a situation where there are fewer umpires than there used to be. And in my opinion, you see that even in the business community.
Within the construction firms—I wrote an article on this subject a month or two ago—a lot of businessmen are currently being beaten up. I'm talking about construction contractors from the Italian community. One of them was seriously beaten up in July by someone belonging to the street gangs, but we don't know where the order came from.
There are a lot. I could talk about other cases; I could name some names.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
I'll go back to you, Ms. Jennings, because you weren't here for your turn. You have five minutes.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
I apologize for being absent. I missed a part, and perhaps the questions that I ask you will already have been asked by someone else.
This concerns the street gangs. In the 1980s, more specifically in 1985, 1986 and 1987, I knew a police officer from the Los Angeles Police Department. It was at the time when the Crips and the Bloods were organized. They started to take over the criminal organizations. The City of Los Angeles had set up a special squad to combat the street gangs, and this police officer was one of the directors of that group.
At the time, he said that the work that was being done against the traditional mafia by, for example, the Hells Angels, and so on, would create a certain void. The success of that fight would create a void, and street gangs would become—
They're embryonic right now, but they will become sophisticated. They will create their networks and they will branch out.
What he predicted has happened, and the street gangs are present here in Canada today.
When investigations are conducted into the mafia and Hells Angels, for example, is there this same coordination within the squads? Do the members of those squads work specifically on street gangs to ensure they don't fill the void when operations like Operation Colisée are started, for example?
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
There are no doubt specialized sections within the Montreal Police Department. There are experts in the field who are constantly investigating the street gangs and are aware of what's currently going on. These are individuals who could give you an accurate picture of the situation of street gangs in relation to the void created by all the arrests that were made. Yes, monitoring is being done.
However, I was speaking to a former colleague who worked with me for the Canadian Criminal Intelligence Service. His specialty was street gangs and he was in contact with Los Angeles, Montreal and other Canadian cities. I saw him again about two years ago, and he was no longer working as a result of a shortage of funding.
It's always the same recurring problem. Good work is being done in a certain field, success is achieved, and, immediately, other priorities arise, staff is short and money is scarce. There's always a minimum, a skeleton staff that remains available to investigators. However, that's not enough for the work to continue full speed ahead, as it should, unless, once again, there is violence, the public and the newspapers call for it,me and there is some media pressure. In that case, 100% of the resources will be reassigned.
For the moment, I can't tell you where things stand.
Liberal
Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC
Thank you.
I still have one minute, but I won't be using it.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I'm sure that as journalists you have some sense for public sentiment in relation to this issue of organized crime and how to deal with it. I'd like to ask you about a suggestion Mr. Sher made earlier today about the benefit of mandatory minimum sentences to enhance penalties in relation to organized crime. I have sometimes heard it said on behalf of the people of Quebec that the people of Quebec don't like mandatory minimum sentences.
I would like to know if those who say that are accurately speaking for Quebeckers, or do you think the people of Quebec would accept that there is a benefit to having mandatory minimum penalties as enhancements for crimes relating to gang activities, organized crime, or such horrific offences such as human trafficking, for example? Do you have any sense of that?
Journalist, As an Individual
You mustn't mix things up. There was indeed a major opposition in Quebec, particularly when the government wanted to increase penalties for young offenders, minor criminals.
Jean-Pierre Lévesque talked about an RCMP operation concerning a foreign exchange office. I don't know whether that rings a bell for you. The RCMP had created, in the years—
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
It was in 1991.
Journalist, As an Individual
In 1991, the RCMP created a false foreign exchange office to attract those who were laundering money. The operation was successful and essentially made it possible to catch mainly members of the Italian mafia, in particular a known lawyer, Joseph Lagana. If I remember correctly, it was at that time that the Liberal government reduced the sentence from one-third to one-sixth. We found that very curious, and a number of journalists saw a connection in it. How was it that the police suddenly caught a lot of people? What is important is that white collar criminals... Money laundering isn't a bloody crime; there's no immediate murder. As money laundering isn't seen as a bloody crime, there's a kind of laxness and sentences are less harsh.
Some thinking should be done on that point.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
May I interrupt you?
The question I want to ask you about.... I understand very well the concern about an accelerated parole for nonviolent offences, but that's not what my question was about. My question is whether you have a sense for whether or not the people of Quebec would agree with Mr. Sher's comment that mandatory minimum penalties might be appropriate to enhance sentences in relation to criminal organizations, or in other appropriate cases. That really was my question.
Conservative
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
In Quebec, people are opposed to the Young Offenders Act. However, for organized crime or for people like Lacroix, there definitely should be minimum sentences.
In Lacroix' case, we're currently talking about a minimum sentence of two years and $1 million or more. The people of Quebec think that's an aberration; it makes no sense. The sentence should be much harsher. Things are moving forward by baby steps. Quebeckers want maximum sentences imposed on members of organized crime because they have no pity on them.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Just so that I understand, two years for fraud over $1 million is still inadequate--is that your comment?
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
Exactly.
You mentioned $2 million. Lacroix committed a $150 million fraud. That will also apply to him. I don't think the amount should be set at $1 million; it should be much harsher. Fraud artists should be treated in the same way as members of organized crime and they should receive much harsher sentences.
Mr. Lacroix, who still owes $85 million, should be told that he'll have to stay in prison until the money is repaid.
Conservative
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Lévesque, under the Criminal Code, the profits from the activities of organized crime can be seized. In 2007, witnesses told the committee that this power had not been used often, particularly in Quebec.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
What power are you talking about?
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
From what I can understand, the new acts put in place have never been tested in court because deals are always reached between defence lawyers and prosecutors.