Justice Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2009

[André Noel]

I think the question concerning the Canada Revenue Agency is very interesting. Tax returns are secret, and they're used to conducting their investigations secretly, but at the same time they don't do it. A good example of that occurred last spring. Mr. Blackburn, the Minister of National Revenue, gave a press conference on the searches of Tony Accurso's businesses. He made that affair extremely public. That's an excellent thing because that enormously increases the pressure on the person concerned and informs public opinion.

There is a negative example. Agreements on income were reached between the Canada Revenue Agency and Vito Rizzuto before he was removed to the United States. A large part of that process was done in secret.

I'm a journalist, and I'm speaking in my own interest and that of my colleagues. I think a lot of government agencies would do well to feed journalists information; that has an enormous impact.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Sher.

[Julian Sher]

A senior RCMP person was quoted in one my earlier books saying that Canada is largely regarded as Maytag of the north. In other words, we are known as a major and very easy place for money laundering. So money is the nexus; that's why the gangsters are involved in crime and that's where you could hurt them.

On the important issue of Revenue Canada, it's my understanding that Revenue Canada cannot be seen as being an arm of the police. They can't be used as fishing expeditions. We don't want our tax people to be used as part of a police state or police activity.

That being said, I was surprised.... When I met with Revenue Canada I didn't know they have investigators not just checking your taxes, but active investigators. They will look through newspapers, and when there's a robbery and a lot of jewels or big art pieces are stolen they think that person seems to have a lot money. So when something tweaks them they're allowed to investigate. And significantly, they're allowed to target certain groups, like seasonal workers.

So perhaps you could look. Could they not decide to target certain groups because of reasonable suspicions or certain individuals because of flashy, overt lifestyles without being seen as being an arm of the police? It's something worth investigating.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move to Madam Thi Lac.

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Good morning. I'm going to share my time with Mr. Ménard.

First of all, thank you for being here. You're doing essential work, work to increase public awareness.

I have succeeded a member who was enormously involved, Mr. Loubier, and who was a victim of threats by organized crime. The Info-Crime program was reinforced in our region, a program that has enjoyed enormous success. Moreover, Mr. Auger, I met you in the context of that program. If we increase public awareness, the public can be very helpful.

We've talked about nominees and the Canada Revenue Agency, and I want to hear what you have to say on that. As parliamentarians, shouldn't we look further? We currently have the means to seize criminals' property, but shouldn't the government legislate with regard to tax havens in order to deliver a body blow to organized crime? It could pass an act to prevent criminals from hiding and sheltering their money and from giving funds to the organization to enable it to continue operating.

[Michel Auger]

I'm going to answer your question briefly and then I'm going to leave.

In theory, you can say that you have to seize the property of criminals, but it's very difficult for police departments to get convictions and effective seizures. The current practice of lawyers is to negotiate criminals' property in exchange for a guilty plea.

Broadly speaking, the problem is that the trials are too long in Canada. In comparison with the United States, sentences in Canada are far too lenient, and it's too complicated to secure seizures. We have to start by seizing property here before thinking about attacking tax havens. That's definitely where you hit organized crime, but there are so many tax evasion methods that it's virtually unthinkable to achieve any major effectiveness here.

The United States had to take a number of approaches to attack Switzerland's bank secrecy which citizens enjoyed, not all of whom were members of organized crime. These citizens had a number of billions of dollars in tax havens. The solution would be to go after the money in the pockets of the criminals, and that's where you have to take innovative steps, as my colleague said earlier.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I'm not going to interrupt you. I'll let you finish your question. But before these two gentlemen leave, in point form, what other thoughts would you leave with this committee as we move forward in preparing a report to Parliament on the whole issue of organized crime?

Perhaps we could start with Monsieur Auger, and then move to Mr. Sher.

[Michel Auger]

I didn't understand your question, sir.

I'm sorry, I didn't understand.

[An hon. member]

He wants to know if you have any other minor points...

[Michel Auger]

No, that's it; I have nothing else to add.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Mr. Sher, do you have any other points you want to leave with the committee?

[Julian Sher]

I think Monsieur Ménard had a brief question for Michel.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Do you have to leave?

[Julian Sher]

Yes. Let me just raise two quick points.

We often call organized crime a cancer. Well, how do you fight cancer? You fight cancer with cancer specialists. You train doctors, you set up special institutions, and then you make sure there's cooperation so there's not just one doctor in one area who discovers something and it's not shared. Those are the basic things we have to do. You need specialized strike forces; you need specialized prosecutors; you need specialized courts if necessary. You maybe then have to bring in other outside experts like we were talking about, Revenue Canada. That's the way you fight cancer. You don't conquer cancer; it's always going to come back. People are still going to get sick, but you dedicate the resources, you stop the unnecessary in-fighting, and you develop the expertise.

The second thing is that it is about education and about public image, the question we were all talking about here. If we had this meeting 10 years ago, 15 years ago, when Mom Boucher and the Hells Angels were treated as rock stars and heroes in Quebec, it would have been quite different. I have travelled around the world; that is still the case. You go to California.... When I go to the United States and Europe, the Hells Angels and other organized crime are often still seen has heroes. It's no longer the case in Canada, in part because of the work we've done as investigative journalists, in part because of laws, and in part because these guys are so stupid and nasty that they've turned public opinion against themselves. But we've made progress in Canada in the sense that at least our bikers are no longer seen as the heroes but are seen as the gangsters they are. That's not the case in other countries, so we have to work on that and make progress.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Monsieur Ménard, you still have two and half minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Mr. Auger, are there any cases of trafficking in human beings in Montreal?

[Michel Auger]

There have been and there no doubt are still, but I particularly know what goes on around the major rings we talked about earlier, the Hells Angels and the street gangs, which have been implicated in those activities. The street gangs have been very much involved in juvenile prostitution. There are a lot of cases of that kind.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

When you talk about trafficking in persons, is that merely the exploitation of a person's work or a much more serious problem?

[Michel Auger]

We're really talking about an individual who takes control of another individual for illicit, criminal purposes. It's always for prostitution purposes. This is the sexual exploitation of minors, in the majority of cases, but it can also involve adults or young women wanting to pay for their drug habits who are used for prostitution purposes in bars and other places of that kind. For the rings that I know about, it's always about that.

[Julian Sher]

It's a modern form of slavery.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

For reference purposes only, I'm going to quote the first sentence of the Global Report on Trafficking in Persons of the UN Office on Drugs and Crime: The term trafficking in persons can be misleading: it places emphasis on the transaction aspects of a crime that is more accurately described as enslavement. Exploitation of people, day after day, for years on end.

Are you in complete agreement?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Monsieur Ménard, please speak more slowly.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Now I would like to know what you think of the following definition: (a) cause them to provide, or offer to provide, labour or a service by engaging in conduct that, in all the circumstances, could reasonably be expected to cause the other person to believe that their safety or the safety of a person known to them would be threatened if they failed to provide, or offer to provide, the labour or service;

Don't you think that's a much broader definition?

[Julian Sher]

The issue of human trafficking, which is domestic, is basically modern slavery, in that the organized crime groups, criminal enterprises, usually control every aspect of that young woman's life. They are literally branded the way the slaves once were. I've been focusing a lot in the United States. The FBI has set up a special squad of agents around the country who do nothing but fight pimps and trafficking networks. They have a whole network, and we have not yet caught up at that level. They are using criminal RICO legislation to go after the networks.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Don't you think that the second definition could apply as well to adolescents of 16 or 17 who work in small businesses? They could think that their safety is in danger if they don't do what they're told to do, especially in a family context. I've seen that kind of situation.