You're right. The second definition is general, broad.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was montreal.
Evidence of meeting #40 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was montreal.
10:50 a.m.
Investigative Journalist (Retired), As an Individual
You're right. The second definition is general, broad.
10:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
We can understand that fact, but the definition is much too broad.
10:50 a.m.
Investigative Journalist (Retired), As an Individual
When we hear about slavery, it's really—
10:50 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Indeed, while the UN definition focuses more on the situations that you have observed.
10:50 a.m.
Investigative Journalist (Retired), As an Individual
Pardon me, but I have to leave.
10:50 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
As for the possibility of banning the Hells Angels, I would like to ask Mr. Lévesque two questions.
As witnesses, we heard from some Quebec police officers, in particular. We asked them whether there was a model. They were unable to provide us with one for Canada or for other countries.
Do you know whether countries that have completely banned a group have a model?
10:50 a.m.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
As I mentioned earlier in my presentation, the only city in the world where the Hells Angels are banned is Hamburg, Germany, and they've been banned since 1986. In that city, it is prohibited to wear the name or emblem of the Hells Angels, even in a tattoo. So whoever wears that kind of tattoo on his arm has to wear long sleeves to cover it up or else be liable to imprisonment.
During the well-known Great Nordic Biker War, which involved Denmark, Norway, Sweden and so on, they considered banning those groups, and then the Hells Angels and Bandidos were ultimately quicker than the politicians: they decided to make peace, and social peace was restored. As we heard earlier, Australia has long been juggling with the idea of banning them, but, as you know, every Australian state is different and has its own powers. It's quite complicated over there.
10:50 a.m.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Mr. Noël, your testimony and that of the other witnesses here today suggest that organized crime is more rampant in Quebec than in the other provinces. Is that correct?
10:50 a.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
I think so.
What happened, historically and from what we understand, is that Montreal was Sin City in the 1930s, before Las Vegas. In fact, it was the Las Vegas of the north. Relations between Montreal and New York were very extensive. With regard to the Sicilian mafia and Montreal, the Rizzuto family has ties with the Bonanno family in the United States. The Bonannos are no longer the leaders, but they're still one of the big five families in New York. From what I've been told and from what I've managed to read, the Cuntrera-Caruanas came and settled here in Montreal in the 1950s after a very difficult period in Italy. Judge Giovanni Falcone, who was assassinated about 10 years ago in Sicily, realized the importance of the Cuntrera-Caruanas by sitting on the commission to examine witnesses in Montreal. That family then settled in Venezuela and forged ties with the Colombian drug cartels. It was roughly around that time that the world was invaded by cocaine from Colombia.
Montreal is really an Italian mafia hub. The fact that Canadian Italian mafia leaders are in Montreal—if you're talking about Nick Rizzuto or Vito Rizzuto—is quite significant. In my opinion, there's something particular about Quebec. That doesn't mean that doesn't exist elsewhere. However, the political or historical reasons why Quebec stands apart from the rest of Canada are probably the same reasons why Sicily stands apart from the rest of Italy, that is to say that Quebec is a special part of Canada.
To answer your question, yes, Quebec is particularly hard-hit by that, in my opinion. Furthermore, what's currently going on in Montreal is extremely important. I showed you the headlines from Le Devoir—which isn't my newspaper from this morning—“Break the omerta”, “Mafia at the doors of city hall?”. What's going on in Montreal right now is historic. I'm pleased because, as an investigative journalist, I did my share to make this affair explode. I was one of the first ones to show that there was corruption in Montreal. However, for 20 years now, we, my colleague André Cédilot and I, have been trying to alert public opinion to the extent of the mafia presencein Quebec and Canada. We also know that it has its ramifications at the federal level as well.
In any case, what's going on is a good thing, and it's good that the federal government is also taking an interest in what's going on in Montreal.
October 22nd, 2009 / 10:55 a.m.
Conservative
Daniel Petit Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you very much.
My question is for you, Mr. Lévesque, and perhaps you'll be able to supplement the answer.
I have a specific interest. I come from Quebec City. You know that we've had major problems with prostitution rings involving important people in Quebec City. You heard about that for a number of years in the Quebec City region. After that, I moved away, and I was interested by the situation in Montreal. Here Mr. Noël partly answered my questions, but I'm putting the question to you.
There's something de peculiar in Montreal, in that we currently sense that something isn't working. I'm talking about street gangs. One of the Bloc Québécois members, Maria Mourani, has published a book in which she describes all street gangs, citing virtually all the names of the members, where they work and so on. So we know that there are street gangs, and we are virtually able to identify their territory and to put names to certain leaders, etc. We know the names of the members of the Hells Angels who are in certain areas of Montreal—I'm coming back to the Hells Angels here—and so on. In the case of the mafia, we seem to have names as well.
So I'm asking myself some questions. We make laws and we know all that. You, who are a former police officer, tell me why it is that we don't act if we know all that. Is it because we lack money, as you said earlier? Is it because we know things and we don't want to get to the bottom of the affair? I'm a bit intrigued. I'm even a bit uncomfortable because we know a lot of things, an enormous number of things, as you said earlier. You've also discovered others, but nothing happens. I'm starting to be afraid. That means that I pay a lot of taxes and that nothing's working. That's also what that means.
So I'm putting the question to you, Mr. Lévesque, who seem to be quite informed about this affair.
10:55 a.m.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
When you attack an organized crime group, whether it be the Hells Angels, the mafia or street gangs whose members' names we know, as you said, and we decide to start an investigation, our evidence obviously has to be bullet-proof at all times. That's one of the reasons why now, when a long-term investigation begins, regardless of the organization, a prosecutor is assigned to it from the very start and helps police officers prepare their evidence so that it's solid at the outset. That's a long-term investigation. Obviously, the laws give us certain powers, but they are always limited.
As I've always said, the key to the success of investigation are the informers. Here again, the work with informers is a long-term effort. Thanks to whom have we just arrested some 110 Hells Angels for the first time? To at least one member of the Sherbrooke chapter of the Hells Angels. Whether you like it or not, even if we know it all, there has to be an accumulation of evidence. But that takes time and it's complicated. The more complex the organization is, the more complex the investigation will be as well.
Obviously, it takes money and staff, as we've said. There also have to be laws enabling us to get to the bottom of things. Yes, that is costly. When you stop these people and they're convicted, I think you have to strike two major blows: leave them in prison for a long time and make them pay back the profits they've made, rather than simply use Revenue Quebec to go after a portion of those profits.
11 a.m.
Journalist, As an Individual
I'm concerned about economic and political influence and I'm making a recommendation to you on the question of nominees. I'm not a legal specialist, but we're here, in particular, to see what can be done from a legislative standpoint. It's extremely useful to clarify and reinforce the act to prohibit the use of nominees. It's obvious that welfare recipients use nominees when they wind up at the head of large businesses.
I've worked on certain files of people. We have trouble writing about them because they deny they are nominees, but we know they are. There are already statutory provisions prohibiting the use of nominees, and the police are asking that they be reinforced. That's vital because, once it becomes difficult to use nominees and major penalties are imposed, you've just solved part of the problem of the economic and potentially political influence of organized crime.
11 a.m.
Conservative
11 a.m.
Conservative
11 a.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I'd like to go back to a subject I've already discussed. What are the relations between the mafia and the Hells Angels of Montreal like? Are they good? Do they divide up the market? Are there any confrontations?
11 a.m.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
In operation Spring 2001, a map of the city of Montreal was seized at the home of an influential member of the Nomads, the Hells Angels. On that map, the territories were clearly indicated: Hells Angels South, Hells Angels Nomads, Italians, and so on. The city was divided up and each had its own territory.
11 a.m.
Bloc
11 a.m.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
Yes, they're the Hells Angels.
11 a.m.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
In fact, the Hells Angels are divided into chapters. Every chapter has a certain amount of independence. A chapter normally covers the place where its members have their activities, such as the Hells Angels Quebec City, the Hells Angels Montreal, the Hells Angels Trois-Rivières. In that case, however, it was the Hells Angels Nomads, who could operate anywhere.
The map of Montreal Island that was found was compartmentalized into a number of groups: the Hells South, Trois-Rivières and Montreal. The Italian mafia had the neighbourhood of Saint-Léonard at the time.
Since then, there's been a rise in street gangs. Unlike the Hells Angels or the Italians, they have no respect. When I say respect, that means respect for the unwritten convention between the various families of organized crime, under which you don't touch a particular territory if it already belongs to someone, unless you pay him a certain amount of money. It's always been the same thing with the street gangs. There are members of street gangs who are what could be called real cowboys, real hot-dogs, people who go anywhere. If they step on someone's toes, they don't care.
Operation Colisée, which attacked Italian crime in Montreal, and the last investigations of Operation SharQc against the Hells Angels of Quebec City created some voids. There's currently nothing solid; It's each man for himself.
11:05 a.m.
Bloc
11:05 a.m.
Royal Canadian Mounted Police (Retired), As an Individual
I'm talking about what I know about because I've been retired for three years. I think there are still business relations. Cooperation, as I said earlier, is a matter of opportunity: if someone has a contract for such and such a thing, in such and such an area, and that can help the Italians, or vice versa, it will get done.
