Justice Committee on Oct. 28th, 2009

[Kevin Brooks]

Once again, I just want to echo the sentiment. It does curb and make the community feel more secure. It does, yes. But certainly, in terms of illegal activity, as my colleague Kenny said, it doesn't really deter or prevent it. It just makes those who engage in that criminal activity think harder about ways they can carry out their task or carry out what it is that they do, whatever they do, in order not to get caught.

In terms of security, yes, but it's not really a security issue. People aren't breaking into the homes in the community. It's not really that type of environment. The criminal activity in this part of the region is more the trafficking of drugs and the sex industry. The cops will make you feel more secure, but there are still going to be people who are in need of drugs and who are still going to want their drugs. So the drug dealers are just going to come up with a more creative way to deliver the product to whoever is looking for it.

It's the same thing as far as prostitution or massage parlours, or what not. These things typically don't take place in the community anyway, so having more cops in the community doesn't really help that at all.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

What about the distribution of the drugs in those communities where the police are? Is it having any impact on the street distribution of drugs?

[Kevin Brooks]

No. I'd say no. There are still people trafficking narcotics on these streets. There are still people looking on these streets for narcotics. So like I said, it's just.... You see the police there, so you're just more conscious or more cognizant of what's going on around you. But you're still going to make that delivery to that person, or that person is still going to go find what they want to find. It might take a little longer, but they're still going to find it, and it's most likely going to be from the same person every time. The location might change or how it's done might change, but for the most part, it's not really having a major effect on the street-level distribution of narcotics.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Anyone from the government side? Nobody?

Mr. Murphy, you had a question.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm from Moncton, not far from where you people are. There's a bit of a nexus between the Moncton region and Halifax in terms of organized crime activities.

I have a couple of questions. They follow on what Mr. Ménard was asking. It goes to motivation, I suppose, what you might tell us from your experiences observing and experiencing the gangs or observing the crime issues in greater Halifax.

There are two questions.

What we have learned in places like Winnipeg and out on the west coast is that there is a very intelligent use of young offenders--or people under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, young offenders, young people--to be pawns or to be players in crime so that if they were to be caught, it would be in a much less punitive or penalty-ridden regime. That's the way, the modus operandi of gangs in places like Winnipeg and out west in Vancouver.

I want to ask you, first, if you see that happening and what your thoughts on it are. There's a movement probably up here in Ottawa. The government seems to be moving toward a climate that would suggest that if a young offender, a youth criminal justice person, knows the meaning of his actions, he may in the future be tried or dealt with in a more adult court fashion. That's my first question.

The second question deals with guns and whether you think there's an increase in the use of handguns and an increased sophistication of those to move the criminal agenda forward in Halifax--whether it's growing quickly, not quickly; whether there's something that law enforcement or border security could do more to prevent that, if that were the case--and just generally, what you're experiencing in your community with respect to gun violence. It's something we've been looking at across the country.

[Marshall Williams]

I think when we're talking about the issue of young offenders being used, we do see that in some cases. I don't think it's so widespread. Like we say, there are small pockets of organized crime activity where that does take place.

In a way, it kind of comes back to the issue of ensuring that these youth who are being used have positive people and positive resources around them, so that their role models aren't the gang members who are recruiting them. Their role models need to be positive people, and if there is a breakdown in their social circumstance—whether it be a family breakdown or some sort of personal issue—the resources need to be there to handle that so that the gang is not playing the role of the parents and being the role models for these youth. They're not necessarily recruited; sometimes they're doing work for their older friends, maybe, who are involved in criminal activity. Because they're having family problems or they're having personal issues, or whatever the situation may be, these older friends become their role models.

I think we need to improve the circumstances of these youth, because yes, the youth may know that what they're doing is wrong and they'll get slapped on the wrist, and yes, the adult they're working for, so to speak, knows that as well. I think there's a need to improve the circumstances of these youth, and also to improve the circumstances overall, so that the activity doesn't necessarily need to take place. As I said, if these youth have the positive role models to follow and the support systems in place, that would help eliminate that problem.

With regard to changing the Youth Criminal Justice Act, I do think that in a way the Youth Criminal Justice Act isn't really designed for these circumstances. It's designed for youth who are involved in mischievous things more than in organized crime activity. So I do think there needs to be some discussion surrounding that. I don't really know whether I want to say yes, we have to change the law so that these youth are treated as adults, but I do think there needs to be discussion, because I don't think it was designed for these circumstances that exist currently.

That's simply to answer that part of your question. I don't know if anybody else wants to field the second part.

[Kevin Brooks]

I want to piggy-back on what Marshall said about the recruitment of youth in criminal activity down here. There could be a few steps made by government that would counteract this right away: first of all, if labour laws were changed so that people could obtain employment at a younger age; second, if the minimum wage were increased.

For kids who seem to be allured to engage in criminal activity, eight times out of ten it's solely for financial reasons. A 14-year-old and 15-year-old, a 13-year-old or 12-year-old has a need for money in the home, has a need for money for themselves, possibly. Maybe they want to play a sport or something like that, want to pay a registration fee, even go to a day camp or something, and the parents don't have the money for that. They're not of age to go out and get a job. If they do go out and get a job, in order to make enough money to pay for whatever they want to pay for, they're going to have to quit school and work 40-plus hours a week, or they can go to, like Marshall said, their older role model, who has money readily available to them. They say, “If I can make twenty bucks to be a runner, and I get paid twenty bucks a drop, as opposed to $8.60 an hour, what would you choose?”

A lot of these young kids are choosing the thing that will help rectify the situation most quickly, whether it be illegal or not. It's not so much that they have an allure or that they want to engage in activities, but that's the only way they can obtain the resources they're looking for at that time.

[Rebecca Moore]

That is true. I do know youth who only engage in criminal activities because they aren't old enough.... They're pretty mature for 13 or 14, but they can't go get a job yet. They have the willingness to work. If they could work, they would go get a job. They would work and they would make their own money, and buy their own clothing instead of going out and shoplifting it. Or they wouldn't sell drugs so that they could buy food or clothing. That happens a lot, often.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you to all of you.

We've actually run out of time here, because we have another in camera meeting right after this.

I want to thank all of you for making the extra effort to actually appear on teleconference today. Your testimony is useful and will form part of the public record. We'll consider it as we prepare a report on organized crime in Canada. So again, thanks to all of you.

[Sobaz Benjamin]

Thank you again for having us.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You're very welcome.

We're just going to suspend for a moment while we go in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]