Evidence of meeting #44 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was life.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
And now it has been reduced to one, or in special instances one and half. I congratulate you for that.
As an Individual
I think you will see the court system moving very quickly. I think you will see more people pleading guilty, and that will free up our jails. Trust me; I'm at court all the time, so I know what goes on.
Thank you.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
I call the meeting to order; we'll reconvene.
We're now moving to our ongoing study on organized crime in Canada. We are pleased to have with us a number of witnesses from the Halifax area. We're sorry we missed you all last week, but it's nice that we were able to connect after all.
We have with us an organization called In My Own Voice. Their program director is Sobaz Benjamin, and he's joined by Rebecca Moore, Glynn Johnston, Marshall Williams, Kenny Loy, Lameia Riddick, and Kevin Brooks. Welcome to all of you.
I think you understand that you have ten minutes to present, and then we'll have a number of questions for you from our members.
Please proceed.
Sobaz Benjamin Program Director, In My Own Voice
One thing I think I need to begin by saying is that I need to speak from where I am positioned in this issue. I have never been a gang member. I shared with the young people, before we went live, that I was fortunate enough that my mother left London, England, with me at a time when the possibility of crossing lines of legality were right in front of me, at 15 years of age. My mother decided that she wanted to move back to the Caribbean, so we left London, England.
My friends were doing things that, if I had stayed in London I would have probably been engaged in also: things like robbing stores and...crossing lines of legality. I was fortunate enough to escape that. In the work I'm doing currently, working with young people, youth at risk, young offenders, I've learned from observation, and from what young people have shared with me about why they crossed lines of legality.
One major thing is the issue of poverty. The issues of race seem to be fading somewhat. The reasons young people feel the need to cross lines of legality have a lot to do with the need for money. A lot of young people are providing for their families at a very young age. This is something that, when the other young people share with you, you'll probably hear again.
For me, it's very difficult to.... I try not to judge, because the young people are in a situation that I think a lot of young people are not in. They are dealing with issues and are growing up very quickly and having to be sole providers in their homes at 15 and 16, and that type of pressure at 15 and 16 is, to me anyway.... Nobody at that age should have to be dealing with those types of issues.
Do you guys want to share?
Go ahead.
Marshall Williams Member, In My Own Voice
I think when we're talking about gangs and organized crime, what we have to do is deconstruct what is a gang. If you look at what a gang is, basically a gang is a social network. It's providing a social opportunity and providing an economic opportunity like any other business, the major difference being that there's a large percentage of illegal activity within that.
If we can ensure that social relationships that these youth have are positive, and that systems are in place so that when they're having difficult family situations and difficult social situations they can be handled, and that there are also economic opportunities within the community, the need for gangs is eliminated. There's no particular extra allure for gang life that comes from anything, such as when it comes to being a movie star or a rock star. The same thing--the money, the fame, and all that--is what comes with gang life, but there's less selectivity. You don't need any particular talent to join a gang. All you need is to be you and be in a situation where you need money and can't get it from your immediate surroundings, and have social pressures as well that require you to do that. That's the opportunity and that's where it constructs. So you have to look at that aspect of it.
That's my point of view.
Kevin Brooks Member, In My Own Voice
I only wanted to say that in this region of Canada, we don't necessarily have gangs, but we do have crime, and I would say it would be organized crime, and a lot of youth are engaged in that. The reason why I wouldn't necessarily say they are gangs is because we don't have the numbers that a major metropolitan area such as Vancouver or Toronto or Montreal would have. So the organized crime activity down here would simply be more of a demographic, what part of town you live in. Most areas that experience sub-par living conditions or high poverty rates are the areas that experience frequent crime and organized crime.
Basically, when I say organized crime, it's not really mafia or anything like that. By organized, I mean it's organized as in the people are aware of each other. There is a code of conduct and there are ethics. There are morals and rules, so to speak, but like in every other aspect of life, these codes of conduct and rules are broken. That's why when I refer to organized crime I'm not really talking mafia. I'm only throwing out that there is a code or ethics that exist, a set of rules that are followed, and that's why I would say organized. It's not chaos.
Down here, right now, if you want to operate in that illegal enterprise, you have to be organized. So they organize themselves in such a manner, but it's not really the crime family mafia-type organization. It's something different where there's more independence.
Kenny Loy Member, In My Own Voice
To me, organized crime would be something planned. There's what we would call a squad down here, as it pertains to a gang, and that would have about four to six people who would plan a crime consistently. One day they might hit one store and they might hit a person, but it's all planned. So that is organized crime in Halifax, to me. But I really don't see a problem with gangs down here, because they aren't really gangs. It's more youth who are looking to fit into a situation, looking to fit into a family. Maybe someone needs protection. I've been in about four what you guys call “gangs”, but I wouldn't classify them as gangs. We were a group of youth that had a name, a title, that we proclaimed as a gang or a squad, simply to fit in really and run around doing crimes that weren't really organized. In my opinion, we need more family-based activities and options, alternatives for us to do instead of doing crimes for money.
Program Director, In My Own Voice
Becky, did you want to say something in the time we have?
Rebecca Moore Member, In My Own Voice
Yes. Halifax is not a very big city, right? So when something goes on in this city, say a shooting, for example, everyone hears about it. In Halifax, everybody knows everybody, so if there's a shooting, if I don't know who did it, I guarantee I know somebody who knows who did it.
So there is a network and what not. The gangs are not exactly like the mafia, as we say, but they are all connected and they all do have a code of ethics. You can't rat, you can't snitch, blah, blah, blah. They have certain things. But as for criminal activity, that code of conduct is pretty much like common sense. So I think the size of the city is a factor, and the networking where everybody does know everybody, and when something goes down, everybody knows about it, everybody hears about it. It's spread out.
Member, In My Own Voice
I'd like to say something else.
Today there's really no such thing as fighting any more; it's all stabbing and shooting. As Becky was saying, it's all connected, so if someone stabs someone else, everyone knows about it and everyone knows who did it. So if someone then has a problem with that person who stabbed the other person, they're not going to try to fight them, but to stab them because they're known for stabbing. Or if someone shoots someone, they're known for shooting, so no one is going to try to fight that person or stab them, but they're going to shoot them.
So we really need an alternative to fighting.
Program Director, In My Own Voice
That's why the group In My Own Voice has come about. It operates as a family. It operates to create economic opportunities, as well as creating options other than the more negative choices. Basically, In My Own Voice is a group where the young people use their stories to educate others, as well as to empower themselves. They become the media, so to speak. We use radio, we use video and television, and we use theatre to share the stories the young people in the group have experienced--what has brought them to where they are, why they have made the choices they have made, and what are they doing to make more positive choices?
Rather than having a third party tell their story, they tell the stories. They craft the story and I and a couple of other staff people help the young people do that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Thank you.
We'll open the floor for questions from our members.
Anyone on the Liberal side? No?
Is there anyone from the Bloc wanting to ask a question?
Monsieur Ménard, for five minutes.
Bloc
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I understand that some of you have belonged to small criminal groups. Am I wrong on that?
Program Director, In My Own Voice
Yes, some people in the room have engaged in criminal activity before.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
So what did you think about the possibility of being imprisoned? Did it deter you from joining the group or did you simply not think about it?
Member, In My Own Voice
No.
Prison is the thing I would say a lot of government has a misconception about. Prison doesn't really affect our decisions, because it's the situation that we're in presently that makes us consider or engage in such criminal activities. So if I'm hungry or there's not a lot of money and/or food in my household and if I go and get a job and work 40 hours a week for minimum wage and when I get paid, there's still no money or food in my household, I'm not really concerned that if I engage in criminal activity there's a possibility I might go to prison. That doesn't really do anything for me, because at the end of the day I've got to put food on my table and provide for my family. So, no, prison is not really a deterrent to people engaging in criminal activities.
Program Director, In My Own Voice
And if I could add to that, I think you've got to look at it in terms of competition. You know, you have a hungry stomach or you have the possibility of going to prison. At some point, prison is down the road. It's a possibility: you might get caught or you might not get caught. But that hungry stomach is something immediate that needs attention, that needs focus, right now. So ultimately, just to reiterate, it's an issue of competition in those terms—and obviously something is going to win out.
Member, In My Own Voice
I just want to build on that point as well.
I don't know if I'm speaking for anybody in this room in particular, but some people's circumstances are bad enough that prison is an improvement over their circumstances, because if you know that every day you're struggling and you're not eating, and you know that if you go to prison you get three square meals a day, you get a gym pass, you get cable TV, and you've got a roof over your head.... You know you're going to receive all of that. So if some people's circumstances are that bad and there are no options for them in the community, as I said earlier, for economic growth or to build wealth and support themselves, to them prison is an improvement anyway. So at that point, it doesn't become a deterrent, because you lose your freedom but you gain everything else you were missing when you had your freedom.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
When we were there on Friday, the chief was in front of the committee describing some of the work the police service in Halifax has done in the region in terms of moving police officers--in I guess some significant numbers and in a number of areas--right into the community. I was wondering if any of you could comment on whether you've had interaction with them and/or whether you see this as an effective way of providing security by the police forces.
Member, In My Own Voice
I don't. It just means that we have to hide what we're doing a little bit better. Instead of doing it on the street, now we have to do it inside of a house, in an alleyway, somewhere where the police aren't.