Justice Committee on April 20th, 2010

[Mia Dauvergne]

Certainly.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

When you say “number of violations”, just so I understand, I assume within that the accused may have several violations.

[Mia Dauvergne]

Correct.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Which is the difference between the 761 and 617?

[Mia Dauvergne]

Well, there isn't always an accused person associated with a violation, because sometimes an incident can occur but nobody's actually identified.

As well, for the number of violations that you see here, there can be multiple violations associated with one incident.

The UCR survey captures up to four violations for each incident that occurs, so the numbers here represent...any one of the four violations was one of these offences.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In terms of an event, this may be multiple accused with multiple violations?

[Mia Dauvergne]

Correct.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Okay. Those are all the questions I have. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Mr. Comartin.

We'll move on to Monsieur Petit for seven minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Good morning.

I'm going to ask some simple questions, if possible. They are intended mainly for the Statistics Canada representatives.

Is it true that there is a program called the Uniform Crime Reporting Program at your organization, which you call the traditional program? Is it still in effect?

[Mia Dauvergne]

I believe what you're referring to is a survey, the uniform crime reporting survey, which collects information on all crime committed that is reported to police in Canada.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is it true that traffic offences under the Criminal Code, such as impaired driving causing death, impaired driving causing bodily harm, impaired operation of a motor vehicle, impaired driving and refusal to provide a breath sample, dangerous operation causing death and dangerous operation causing bodily harm are excluded from the traditional crime rate?

[Mia Dauvergne]

If you are referring to the crime rate, the crime rate excludes any traffic offences as well as any federal statute offences. But we certainly have information on those particular offences that you did mention, for example, impaired driving.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is it true that drug offences, such as cocaine trafficking, cocaine importing and production, cocaine production, cocaine trafficking, trafficking in other drugs referred to in the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act, heroine importing and production, and others, are excluded from the traditional crime rate?

[Mia Dauvergne]

That is correct. Anything that would fall under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act is excluded from the calculation of the traditional crime rate. However, again, we can certainly provide statistics on those particular offences.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is it true that criminal offences under federal statutes, such as fraud under the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act, fraud under the Income Tax Act, fraud under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act are excluded from the traditional crime rate?

[Mia Dauvergne]

If the offence falls under the Criminal Code--there are fraud-related offences within the Criminal Code--then they would be included in the calculation of the traditional crime rate. However, if they fall under another federal statute, then yes, they would be excluded. But again, we have information on some of those offences.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is it true that, under the Uniform Crime Reporting Program, you consider the offence a homicide only if police find the body? There are an average of 5,000 disappearances in Canada a year and 150 to 175 persons are never found. For example, in Quebec, the daughter of Mr. Surprenant disappeared 10 years ago; Cédrika Provencher, four years ago. There are 500 Indians who disappeared a number of years ago. Is it true that people who have disappeared for a long period of time are not considered under the Uniform Crime Reporting Program?

[Mia Dauvergne]

We have two separate surveys that collect crime information in Canada. One is the uniform crime reporting survey. The other is the homicide survey, which is specific to homicides that occur in this country, and it collects more detailed information. If the police deem that a homicide has occurred, then that would be reported to us.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Is it true that, under the Uniform Crime Reporting Program, you count criminals, but not always victims? For example, if you have 10 fraud artists who defraud 10 persons, you count them as 10 offences. However, when a fraud artist defrauds 9,200 persons, you count only one indictable offence.

[Mia Dauvergne]

It depends on the type of offence. We do collect information on victims within incidents that are categorized as offences against the person. So, for example, we have information on assaults that occur. If there are five people who are assaulted within a particular incident, we would count one incident and five victims.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

In the Uniform Crime Reporting Program, when a person is charged with a number of offences, is it true that only the most serious offence is counted for statistical purposes? For example, an individual commits a break and enter at a residence in order to commit a sexual assault and a rape. The most serious offence is the one for which the law provides the harshest penalty or that appears first in the classification of offences. In the example I just cited, it is the sexual assault that will be counted, not the break and enter. Is it true that you count it that way in the UCR, that is to say in the Uniform Crime Report?

[Mia Dauvergne]

We have different versions of the uniform crime reporting survey. In our earliest version--and I think we were talking about this earlier--that is correct. We used to count incidents according to the most serious violation that occurred within the incident. However, we have a newer version of the uniform crime reporting survey that can capture up to four violations for each incident that occurs. In other words, we have information on the most serious as well as up to three other violations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Ms. Mendes for five minutes.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am referring to what you said earlier, Professor Martin, that the crime rates, relative to the 1960s, are much higher today. I don't have any statistics to hand. You also talked about the fact that there was greater tolerance for homosexuals or immigrants. So there is less racism.

Professor, I would say that it is mainly as a result of prevention and education that is being done in society. It's not necessarily because we punish that the situation is improving. I think a lot of work has been done on education and prevention.

So if you apply this point of view to the question of crime committed by young persons—I'm not talking about those committed by adults who do it for profit—it seems to me that the policy of punishment without rehabilitation can never work. It's not by increasing their term of imprisonment or by sending them to prison for life that we'll solve the crime problem. You have to attach that to a very coherent prevention and rehabilitation program. Often sending people to prison has the effect of making them more hardened criminals. Prisons are schools for crime. That doesn't solve the basic problem.

I'd like to know your opinion on that subject.