Justice Committee on May 11th, 2010

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I make a point of meeting with victims, victims' groups, and victims' advocates on a regular basis. The challenges victims face are as broad as society as a whole. On some occasions I'm meeting with victims of white-collar crimes, for instance, and as you say, the pain is in the eye of the victim. I've had people who have been defrauded and lost their life savings tell me that the pain is as difficult to bear as it would be if they had been beaten up or stabbed or shot.

With regard to the provisions we are putting in to require the courts to look at the possibility of adult sentences, detention prior to the disposition, and lifting the publication ban, I heard loud and clear that people want to know about what's happening. They want to be able to protect themselves when necessary, so you'll see changes in there with respect to the possible lifting of publication bans.

In your community I heard loud and clear messages from individuals who want to see changes. I say to you and to all committee members that this was very helpful to me and to those working with me in putting together the legislation that you have before you.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you very much.

We'll move over to Mr. Murphy for five minutes.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

I am concerned. I know you, and I know you clearly care about victims' rights. I might ask you what happened to our non-renewed Mr. Sullivan. Other than the fact that he wasn't fluently bilingual and may have been a few issues with that, he handled himself quite well. Why is he not being renewed, when do you think there will be a replacement, and will you ask opposition members—and government members, for that matter—for some input on that? That's a short snapper.

The other question I have is about the 14-, 15-, and 16-year-old limits of onus that I went on at you about in the first round. I can clearly understand Monsieur Ménard's point. In Quebec they have a highly developed system of treating youth justice issues, and I understand their AG might have asked for this. Point-blank, Minister, did any other attorney general in any other province ask for this varying standard? If it is giving some leeway to Quebec, I think we're all grown up around this table and we understand, but I would like to know if there are others.

On the issue of consultations, my BlackBerry must not have been working that day, but I don't remember getting an invitation to one in Moncton. I understand those were very well attended and I understand that much of the input, including that from prosecutors, was laudatory towards how the YCJA is working. I think when you bring amendments like this and you have the statements made around the table that have been made, sometimes it results in a loss of confidence in the system. I'm looking for you, Minister, to say, “Well, the YCJA does work in great measure, but we're fine-tuning it”.

My question goes to the consultations and the results of those consultations, the without-prejudice aspects of them. Can they be shared at least in an in camera way with members of the justice committee, or on a larger scale? Perhaps the public would like to know about the public consultation. It seems ironic that you'd have public stakeholder consultation and not publish the results thereof for everyone to see verbatim. It might shorten our journey here to find out what people are saying.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You've covered a number of different areas.

One of the things I'm most proud of, and I know my colleagues are too, is the creation of the Office of the Federal Ombudsman for Victims of Crime. One individual, of course, has had a term, for which we thank that individual. We posted to the public the job requirements and indicated that people were allowed to apply for that job, and a decision will be made shortly on that.

I'm very pleased to be part of a government that created that office. I think it is an idea whose time had certainly come three years ago when we moved forward on this. Having an individual whose job it is to stand up for victims in this country and to deal with victims' issues was an idea that was overdue in this country, so I'm very proud that we've done that, and we will be naming a federal ombudsman in due course.

With respect to your comments about provincial discretion with respect to 14-, 15-, and 16-year-olds, it currently existed under the presumptive provisions that were in the Youth Criminal Justice Act. The presumptive provisions, as you know, were struck down by the Supreme Court of Canada in its decision on Regina v. D.B. That said, we've continued them in the provisions with respect to adult sentences. It's perfectly consistent with the laws as they already exist in this country.

With respect to the public consultations, I believe they were quite extensive. I would challenge anyone to say on other areas that there wasn't greater consultation, because I went to every single province and every single territory. We encouraged input from people like you on the Department of Justice website. I was looking forward to any input, any provisions on these.

For me and my colleagues, this has been a priority, as is all our criminal law legislation. At the Liberal conference, did you hear anything about fighting crime? Were there any papers, any discussions, any inputs? I didn't hear any, but believe me, if the Liberal Party or anybody else wants to have input with respect to cracking down on crime in this country and standing up for victims, I would welcome it. I would very much appreciate anybody who wants to come forward with that. As you know, I'm waiting for a little more priority from my colleagues outside the government on this matter, but if there's a conversion or a reawakening of people's interest in fighting crime in this country, I would certainly welcome it.

In any case, we had very extensive consultations, and the result of those extensive consultations is Sébastien's law, the law that you have before you here today, Mr. Chairman. This just shows you that consultation does work when we talk to all the stakeholders and we come up with a bill such as the one you have today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Monsieur Lemay, I believe you're going to go next. You have five minutes.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Minister, I am going to give you a solution for looking after victims very quickly. Eliminate the right to release after one sixth of sentence. Do that immediately, this afternoon, and you will see what victims, particularly the victims of Earl Jones and Norbourg, have to say. You want a solution, well I am giving you one, and it can be done very quickly.

Second, Mr. Minister, concerning young offenders, I would like to know whether you have statistics, or you could send them to us, that show that there was a rise in crime committed by young offenders between 2004 and 2008. In fact, all our figures show that there was a decline in violent crimes committed by offenders under the age of 18 over the last three years.

Do you have figures about this and could you send them to us if they exist?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Monsieur Lemay, I will be glad to send you any statistics that we have. I've had this discussion with you before in terms of the challenges we face with young people and others committing gun crimes and violent offences, but you're certainly welcome to get any statistics in that area. I'm glad to hear you've woken up and you're buying into what we've been saying about parole and all these things.

As you know, this government has had a wide range of legislation. We had legislation today. One of my colleagues has introduced a bill on pardons and white-collar crime. You'll be one happy individual, I think, by the end of this Parliament when you see all the different areas, because we're not leaving anything untouched. It's very focused and covers a wide area.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Excuse me, Mr. Minister.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'd be very pleased to have your support. That's for sure.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I adore you, Mr. Minister, but you know I have only a little time left, and so you will be able to use as much time as possible for your answer.

I don't agree with you. I don't share your opinion. In Quebec, statistics clearly show a decline in crime. You have those figures. You know there has been a constant decline in crime.

At present, not only does the proposed reform run counter to the fundamental values of Quebec when it comes to rehabilitation, but the theme chosen for of the bill exhibits enormous cynicism. It is called Sébastien's Law. Let me tell you that the young criminal was given an adult sentence under the current Young Offenders Act. That has been established; that is the reality.

You say that the current act does not stand up for victims. The priority in Quebec is awareness. A rehabilitation program is based on the accused's awareness of the harm they have caused to the victims.

I agree with you, there are criminals, and young people get lost, perhaps, but that might be one in 100,000, in Quebec. I can't speak for the other provinces, but I speak for Quebec.

Can Quebec assert its difference and continue to apply the act that it has been successfully applying?

[Editor’s Note: Bells ringing]

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Members, given the fact that the minister has to leave at noon, I think we're going to suspend for a moment to allow him to leave. Ms. Kingston and Ms. Latimer will remain.

We'll suspend for five minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We're reconvening the meeting.

Thank you, Ms. Kingston and Ms. Latimer, for coming back. We don't have a lot of time. We have 15 minutes for questions.

I am going to go to Monsieur Petit for five minutes.

You got caught, Mr. Petit.

Did you have a question, Monsieur Lemay?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

There was no time left for more questions? If I understand correctly, my turn was over? I didn't have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You were very close to finished. I believe you had a minute left, so I'll give you an extra minute on this round. Is that all right?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

A point of order, Mr. Chair.

Given that we don't have much time and we have matters to discuss relating to the study, could we ask the Department's representatives to come back for a one-hour meeting?

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We'll consult with the departmental officials and see if that can be made to work.

Go ahead, Monsieur Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, ladies. I will ask my questions as quickly as possible given that time is extremely limited.

I would ask you to look at clause 21 of Bill C-4. That clause states: "No young person who is under the age of 18 years is to serve any portion of the imprisonment in a provincial correctional facility for adults or a penitentiary."

That means that formerly, they could be incarcerated in a penitentiary for adults or that this was never done?

[Paula Kingston]

It is possible under the current YCJA, but only in very limited circumstances. If a young person has received an adult sentence, and the judge, in determining placement.... There's a presumption against putting someone under 18 into an adult facility, but the possibility is there. It's there, but it's very rarely used, if ever.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

It's a very simple question. Are there statistics about young people under the age of 18 years, or for Quebec, young people between the ages of 16 and 18 years, who have been incarcerated in a prison or a penitentiary? I'm not talking about a youth centre. The difference is that it should say "youth detention centre". A prison is for adults, as is a penitentiary.

Do you know whether people have been incarcerated, when they were under the age of 18 years, in a prison or a penitentiary?

[Paula Kingston]

We don't have a specific study on that, but we do know that very few young people get adult sentences, and by the time they're sentenced, they're usually 18 or over. Because the presumption in the legislation says that they shouldn't be sentenced or placed in an adult facility, we're confident that it happens very rarely, but we don't have the exact numbers.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I'll repeat the question. Do you know whether people under the age of 18 years have been incarcerated in a prison or a penitentiary? I'm not talking about people who reach the age of 18 years and can then be incarcerated in a prison or a penitentiary.

Is it accurate to say that no one under the age of 18 years has been incarcerated in a prison or a penitentiary?

[Paula Kingston]

No, we can't say that. It can happen and it has happened, but it's very, very rare. We don't know the exact numbers, however.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You're saying that it has happened, but they are rare cases. What do you mean? Do you have a statistic that allows you to say that? You must have a statistic?

[Paula Kingston]

We had statistics from before the YCJA came into effect. In that case, even before the presumption against doing this, there were, at most, five a year. The law against that has been strengthened, and now that presumption, under the bill, will become a prohibition.