Justice Committee on May 25th, 2010

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's the total. Okay.

In that regard, did you take into account that this bill requires police to keep track of all extrajudicial measures? Have you taken into account the cost to the police forces of that additional recording of data?

[Kelly Lamrock]

No. Ours is based simply on detention and incarceration. If it is intended to be an unfunded mandate, that would be extra.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

At any time, from any minister at the federal level, have you been offered additional funds to cover these costs?

[Kelly Lamrock]

No.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Was Youth Options the name of the program that was cut?

[Kelly Lamrock]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Was it replaced? Was there any other prevention money that came into the province to replace it?

[Kelly Lamrock]

While there was funding in the past for prosecutorial capacity a couple of years ago, the answer is no. Strictly on that side, we have been told that the federal government is leaving that to the provinces. We're making an effort to replace the funding, but there's no federal money.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So their justification for cutting this was jurisdictional rather than, as you said earlier, evidence-based in terms of its effectiveness.

[Kelly Lamrock]

I have heard no suggestion, nor do I know of any evidentiary basis, for the federal government to cut the program on the grounds it isn't working. Our numbers show it is.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I want to go to a couple of specific sections. There's a provision in here that would give judges discretion to lift publication bans, which are a general rule against publicizing crime committed by youth. Does your government have a specific position on that provision?

[Kelly Lamrock]

We believe that should be done with great care. Obviously, any barriers that would stand in the way of reintegrating a young person, whether it is entering a school system where one is already inclined to give up on them or assist them, or whether it's looking for work, which we know has a tremendous impact on giving young people a sense that it's worth turning their lives around....

It is amazing when I see it. Generally, whether it's good kids at university with academic problems or kids with complex needs, if they believe there is a job they love at the end of the rainbow, they're actually more likely to turn around. The incentive to succeed is actually a more powerful tool with young people than fear of punishment if they have no reason.

In that sense, we would always be very prudent. As an attorney general, even if this were changed, in terms of our instruction to prosecutors, frankly, if we're not moving it into adult court, we likely would instruct our prosecutors not to look at the publication ban. If it's serious enough to lift that, they should be in adult court, which is where we want our violent offenders anyway.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That would be your test.

[Kelly Lamrock]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Have you looked at any guidelines to give to the judiciary beyond that one?

[Kelly Lamrock]

In general, yes. I can tell you we're profoundly concerned that if we lose the financial capability to intervene with young people at risk, to lock more of them up, New Brunswickers won't be any safer.

This isn't some bleeding heart liberal approach. As I've said, in the last session we have laws that allow for the forfeiture of proceeds of crime. We're allowed to move people out of homes or seize homes and cars that are used to sell drugs or put kids at risk. Everything we can do to police or stop crime before it happens, we're willing to spend money on that. But certainly I have asked my staff in the Attorney General's office to look at how much discretion we have. If the feds impose this approach on us without a lot of evidence, how can we possibly make sure that we maintain our ability to look at what our evidence shows is working?

So we will have guidelines to prosecutors, and we'll respect the law, but we will look for any ability to pursue the approach that New Brunswick is using to keep New Brunswickers safer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

You have one and a half minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Let me go to this one other area.

You raised on a couple of occasions that if there are any amendments to the act, that they be around the issue of pretrial custody and that phase. Do you see anything in this proposed legislation that advances that issue favourably to your needs?

[Kelly Lamrock]

Certainly there is some language around the Nunn report that we would welcome. If I had my team sitting there with their drafting pencils, I would probably make some of the same comments I made around moving things to adult court, that by trying to stuff a lot of things, such as risky behaviour and so on, in this wide range of criteria, they may have actually given judges more discretion to not send violent offenders into the adult system or keep them locked up. I'd almost like to see it tightened up. But I would acknowledge, and I think it is important to acknowledge, that some of the language there around pretrial detention is helpful to us. That was an area of needed clarity.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

That's all, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Mr. Dechert, for seven minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being with us today and sharing your views with us.

Does New Brunswick provide rehabilitation programs in its youth institutions currently for young people who are held in custody?

[Kelly Lamrock]

I would simply say that certainly there is an attempt to fund where possible, in dedicated youth facilities, those kinds of programs. I would also say, though, that a number of the programs we have, such as Portage and others, also provide security with targeted programs for everything from drug abuse to mental health. So the answer is yes, but the line is that we don't have one system to lock people up and one to treat them.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Where you have a murderer, an attempted murderer, or a serious sexual offender who is a young person in your provincial detention system, what kind of programs are you offering to rehabilitate that person?

[Kelly Lamrock]

Frankly, Mr. Dechert, if we have a murderer or a repeat sexual offender as a young offender, I want to move them into the adult system.