Evidence of meeting #20 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I'm just amazed that you can't acknowledge a simple error of that nature in your brief. But I'm going to move past it.
With regard to the phrase “protect the public”--protéger le public--do you agree with me that this can encompass both long-term and short-term protection?
Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
I don't see it. Could the gentleman repeat that? I was thinking about the previous comments.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
The phrase “protect the public”--protéger le public--can encompass both short-term and long-term protection, n'est-ce pas?
Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
Yes, neither one precludes the other, in itself.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Merci. This is why I disagree with the contention on page 2 of your brief that the notion of “public protection” is linked to immediate protection of Canadians, not long-term protection.
I next wish to draw your attention to page 4 of your brief, the discussion of clause 11, in which you contend, “The prosecutor’s decision to not seek an order has no function that would justify giving notice to the court.”
Do you agree with me that a young person's decision to plead guilty or have a trial is likely to be influenced by a prosecutor's decision to seek an adult sentence upon conviction?
Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
Not necessarily.
I can't answer a statement like that yes or no, because distinctions certainly have to be made among individual cases.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Do you think that a young person has the right to be informed of material considerations before entering a plea of guilty or not guilty?
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
And do you not think that the crown attorney's decision to seek or not seek an adult sentence is a material consideration for a young person deciding to plead guilty or not guilty?
Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
Certainly those factors will be taken into consideration. However, in the previous formulation, all those things are not necessarily happening at the same time.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
The fact is that the materiality of the crown's decision to seek an adult sentence or not seek an adult sentence in my view means there is a very important function for the crown to be required to disclose that before the plea is entered, as required by clause 11 of this bill.
Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
Under the existing act and under the amendments, the Crown can do it right up to when the trial begins, and even, sometimes, right up to sentencing. So announcing that decision—
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Precisely. That's a little unfair to the offender, isn't it? To find out after he's entered his plea that the crown is going to ask for an adult sentence--don't you think that's unfair to an offender?
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Don't you think it's a little unfair to the offender not to know, before he or she enters his or her plea, that the crown is or is not seeking an adult sentence?
Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
In the practice of law, whether with young people or with adults, before entering a plea of guilty to an offence for which an adult sentence could be asked for, you are going to make sure you get all the information that is available. That is why, at first appearance, even if it is announced, you will plead not guilty.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
As you yourself pointed out a moment ago, under the present system the crown might not announce that decision until the point of sentencing. I just don't see why you would not find that unfair. However--
Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
If it was unfair, I would make the submissions I need to make to the court when the time came.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
We are at the end of our time. I want to thank each one of our witnesses for appearing today. Your testimony will form part of the evidence. We'll discuss Bill C-4 probably about a month down the road and move to clause-by-clause.
Again, thank you to all of you.
The meeting is adjourned.