Evidence of meeting #20 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Peter Dudding  Executive Director, Child Welfare League of Canada
Yves Laperrière  Department Head, Youth Criminal Justice Act, Centres jeunesse de l'Outaouais
Megan Forward  Lawyer, Policy Research, African Canadian Legal Clinic
Lwam Ghebarehariat  Summer Law Student, African Canadian Legal Clinic
Nicole Dufour  Lawyer, Research and Legislation Service, Barreau du Québec
Dominique Trahan  Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
Carole Gladu  Lawyer, Barreau du Québec
Serge Charbonneau  Director, Regroupement des organismes de justice alternative du Québec
Michael Spratt  Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Jacques Dionne  Professor , Department of Psychoeducation and Psychology, Université du Québec en Outaouais, As an Individual

12:30 p.m.

Lawyer, Barreau du Québec

Dominique Trahan

Clauses 20 and 24 of the bill amend the rules on lifting publication bans set out in section 75 of the YCJA. It is proposed that the court, where it imposes a specific sentence on a youth convicted of a violent offence, determine whether a publication ban, particularly a ban on identifying the victim, should be lifted. The bill further states that the principles set out in sections 3 and 38 of the Act, as amended, must be considered. We reiterate that deterrence and denunciation are among the additions proposed in the bill.

The Barreau du Québec disagrees with this change, which targets many situations brought before the court because of the new definition of violent offence. Further, the publication of information that could identify the youth and the nature of the measures imposed will stigmatize the young person, and that could hurt their chances of being rehabilitated and returning to society. We question the usefulness of treating young people 14 to 18 years of age whom the court determines to be proper candidates for the youth criminal justice system in the same way as adults, in terms of publication of their identity, based solely on the nature of offence (ranging in this case from murder to uttering threats). Should we not instead fear the ripple effect among young people seeking attention?

The legislative amendments also introduce the notion of "significant risk", of which the court must be satisfied. The Barreau du Québec is of the opinion that a definition of "significant risk" would be appropriate. Finally, the Barreau contends that the standard of proof required for an order lifting a publication ban must be the standard applied in sentencing (beyond all reasonable doubt), since it the issue of publication is tied to it. We hope that these comments will be useful.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We'll move on to Monsieur Charbonneau.

You have 10 minutes.

12:30 p.m.

Serge Charbonneau Director, Regroupement des organismes de justice alternative du Québec

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, members of the committee. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for inviting me.

I am going to start out on a positive note by saying that I am relatively convinced that I share intentions similar to yours. I have not come here in the hope that people will be victimized or murders will be committed. For 25 years, I have worked hard to reduce crime among young people throughout Quebec and Canadian society. I am involved in a number of things. I think we are in agreement on those intentions. Our opinions may diverge when it comes to some facts and methods. I am therefore very happy that this discussion is possible and that you are allowing it. I congratulate you on holding these hearings.

Given that the Regroupement des organismes de justice alternative is not very well known, I am going to say few words about it.

We are a provincial association composed of 37 non-governmental organizations in Quebec. Those organizations work with young people and victims of crime. We work with those two clienteles with the aim of protecting society, and through referrals by the police, extrajudicial sanctions and the administration of several specific sentences as provided by law. Each year, we work with and offer services to about 10,000 young people and 5,000 victims of crime. We believe that we are, in a way, a key player in the field of justice for young people and victims. Our analysis of Bill C-4 has led us to the conclusion that in its present form, the bill will contribute neither to improving public safety nor to improving outcomes for victims of crime.

With respect to public safety, we wonder about the appropriateness of amending the Act. It has been in force for seven years now, and I think there are still several approaches to be developed. Some aspects have not been fully implemented. It is mainly the arguments you are advancing for amending the Act that is causing us problems. We can see from the figures, using all of the methods used to identify crimes, that youth crime is either stable or declining. I could quote the figures you certainly have at your fingertips, in particular the Statistics Canada data. They are easy to find. It seems to us that for the moment, there are no objective data that justify the proposed amendments to the existing Act.

Quebec, and Canada as well, in our opinion, has chosen to tackle youth crime by examining the causes of that crime and working to rehabilitate the young people. Several programs have been created with a view to remedying the harm caused to victims of crime. We want to tell you that when they are combined, the following three strategies—rehabilitation, reintegration and reparations—are recognized as being the most effective for combating crime and recidivism in young people. In our opinion, public safety will not be enhanced by applying measures that are essentially based on detention and punishment. In our opinion, the objectives of achieving more public safety are inconsistent with the methods adopted in this bill. Forgive us for giving you advice, but we will take the liberty of doing that.

We propose, instead, that you strengthen what is already working: remedial justice and rehabilitation. In our opinion, it would be a shame if considerations other than objective data and measures that are working were to result in major amendments to the Act such as those you are proposing. In our opinion, Bill C-4 is a step backward in terms of justice for minors. Clearly the overarching objective of this bill is to protect the public rather than to meet the needs of young people and provide reparations for victims. I think this bill flies in the face of the conclusions reached by several authors, who say that deterrence and denunciation are ineffective with offenders. The prospect of a longer sentence has no impact on them at the point when they commit an act. This has been demonstrated over and over. And it means that young people are no more rational then adults when they commit an act.

If referring young people to the adult system is contrary to the unique needs of young people, making it easier to sentence them as adults, even in small numbers, amounts to putting many components of our youth justice system, a system that has its roots in the 19th century, back on the table.

As well, it seems inappropriate to us to amend an act to cover a few special cases. It becomes a general policy that affects all young people, based on only a few of them. Why would we want to take harsh measures for the few extreme cases when the existing Act already allows for adult sentencing? The possibilities available under the present Act have been illustrated by both the Barreau du Québec and other people who have testified here. It is already possible to punish violent behaviour by young people under the existing Act.

I will move on to the question of outcomes for victims. The ROJAQ adopts the comments made here by the Association québécoise Plaidoyer-Victimes on May 13, 2010. We also oppose the way this bill exploits victims. Using victims' rights to legitimize getting tougher on crime is despicable, in our eyes. Victims are not all calling for punishment. Revenge is not a common thread among victims. Harsher punishment will not necessarily meet the demands of all victims, even if some would like to see it.

In 2001, as the AQPV noted, Allan N. Young certified in his study for the Department of Justice of Canada that there is no evidence that victims want harsher sentencing. That bias had been criticized by other countries. The ROJAQ therefore protests against Canada taking that path, in spite of the criticism leveled against it. What some victims, or most victims, want, what means most to them, is to get answers to their questions, to be able to speak about what they are feeling, about their experience as a result of the event, and to obtain reparations.

The ROJAQ believes that it would be much more appropriate for your government to propose a set of measures that would promote participation by victims in the judicial or extrajudicial process, and to support the development of restorative justice in Canada, which means supporting the existing provisions of the YCJA in that regard.

It would also have been desirable to announce improvements to the assistance provided to Canadian provinces so they could improve the criminal injuries compensation system. Thank you, sir.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Merci.

We'll move on to Michael Spratt for 10 minutes.

June 1st, 2010 / 12:40 p.m.

Michael Spratt Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Thank you very much.

I'd like to thank this honourable committee for the invitation. My name is Michael Spratt. I'm a criminal defence attorney here in Ottawa with the firm Webber Schroeder Goldstein Abergel. I deal with youth on a daily basis, as do most members of our organization. The CLA comprises more than a thousand criminal defence lawyers who deal on a daily basis with issues that this bill seeks to tackle.

Before I start, I'd be remiss if I didn't thank Jennifer Myers and Ildiko Erdei for their assistance in evaluating the bill.

That said, and cognizant of the limited time I have, I'll jump right into it. I'm sure you'll cut me off if I go over.

There are some positives in this bill. I'm going to tell you all the things that I think are negative or need reconsideration, but I'd like to start with talking about some of the positives: reversing the unconstitutional onus that was present before and was struck down by the Supreme Court; and provisions such as mandating that youth serve their sentence in a youth facility. Providing that there is adequate funding for these youth facilities, I think we can all agree that this is something that is advantageous.

However, there are some major difficulties with the bill: the shift in principle from rehabilitation and reintegration to deterrence and denunciation; problems with judicial interim release; the broadening of the definition of serious offence and the implications this will have with the number of youth who are in pre-sentence custody; the broadening of the definition of violence and the impact that will have on the number of youth who find themselves in custody following conviction; the consideration of extrajudicial sanctions and determination as to whether a youth should be sentenced to custody or not; and the associated problems with the publication of the youth's name.

Before I discuss those issues in whatever detail I can, given the time, I think it's important to look at the context in which this legislation is being proposed. The current legislation, from our perspective, is successful. There is a decrease in youth crime, specifically a dramatic decrease in property crime committed by youth. The YCJA corrects the historic problem of over-incarceration of youth and has demonstrated that an emphasis on rehabilitation and integration works.

The use of custody for property offences was a great problem preceding this bill. Of course, the over-incarceration of youth has a number of negative impacts, both on the youth themselves and on the system, and that shouldn't be a goal that we're striving towards.

The context here is that the justice minister has said that the protection of the public is a primary goal--and I couldn't disagree more--but the protection of the public can best be achieved through rehabilitation and reintegration, not through abandoning those principles in favour of a short-term fix that may not ultimately in the long run serve the goals that we all find valuable.

The bottom line is that the system works. Youth who engage in serious and violent behaviour can be detained and are detained under the current legislation. There are always isolated examples to the contrary, but what works shouldn't be abandoned over a few isolated incidents.

I'd like to speak about denunciation and deterrence. Again these principles are a move away from what is working currently, and they're not consistent with what we know about youth. I'm sure this committee has heard a lot of evidence from people much more expert than I am about how youth think, what they respond to, and how they are less affected by general deterrence and denunciatory sentences. In the government's own legislative summary, there are studies from Professor Bala and Professor Grondin and others cited to support that principle. I'd commend to the committee to consider in detail those studies and the evidence that I'm sure you'll hear from people like that.

Deterrence and denunciation aren't effective on youth. Youth are recognized to be more vulnerable, less mature, less able to exercise judgment. Re-incorporating those provisions, which run contrary to what we know is working under the YCJA, is going to result in more jail, either jailing of a youth who is presumed innocent before his trial or a custodial sentence after trial. More jail, I submit, leads to more crime and ultimately less protection of the public.

On the topic of jail, I'd like to speak about pre-sentence custody. The starting position here is that the youth are presumed innocent and should be detained only when necessary. Again, the justice minister has said that violent repeat offenders can't be held under the YCJA. That may be the public perception, but that's not correct. Currently, yes, there is a presumption against release, for very sound and very valid reasons, but with violent offences, youths who have demonstrated non-compliance can be detained. They can be detained if the offence is serious.

On the topic of seriousness, the new legislation as proposed defines very broadly what a “serious offence” is. Under the new legislation, a youth can be detained if a serious offence is committed. We can all agree that certain violent offences are serious; however, the legislation goes beyond that and includes property offences. Property offences, which we have seen under previous forms of youth legislation, have posed significant problems that lead to over-incarceration. These serious offences would include offences such as theft, possession, being unlawfully in a dwelling house, fraud, and possession of break-and-enter tools such as a screwdriver.

Jail is not the best place for the vast majority of youth. Separation from family and community support networks, disruption of a youth's routine and schedule, aren't desirable. Of course, putting a youth in custody in a custodial institution with the youth who probably deserve to be there is not advantageous either. Youth are vulnerable and open to influence. This bill could lead to a youth who has committed property offences being in an institution with much more violent youth who deserve to be there. Of course, no one wants to create a training school for young criminals. It's rehabilitation that works, not warehousing.

From a practical standpoint, increasing the chance that a youth who has committed some of these offences may find himself or herself in pre-sentence custody raises a number of issues. I can tell you that there will be more bail hearings, more delays; there will be more costs associated. I'm sure you'll hear from crown attorneys who will tell you that the courts as they are now are overburdened. I'm sure you'll hear from correctional institution officials who will tell you the problems of funding their institutions as well.

There will be litigation. The over-incarceration of youth, given the circumstances unique to them and their development, may leave this section open to attack under section 7 or other sections of the charter. And of course there are ripple effects throughout the charter. Paragraph 11(b), the right to a speedy trial, may come into play, with youth who are detained ultimately suffering more prejudice than those youth who would have been released under previous legislation. And of course, at the end of the day, these youth who commit property offences, who under this bill could be incarcerated, may not and in my experience likely would not ultimately be sentenced to a period of incarceration.

Moving on to sentencing, there's a removal of the consideration about the seriousness of crime and of the circumstances of offence; that language is taken out. That's what should be considered. Violent youth currently can be sentenced to custody and can be sentenced as an adult.

The broadening of the term “violent offence” is also problematic. It's an over-broad definition that could capture such offences as threats. Of course, by including “recklessness” in that definition, many more youth will be captured, through that provision. When we're looking at youth, it has to be remembered that a youth does not have the foresight that an adult may have or that we can impute to an adult. By including recklessness, we might be over-incarcerating youth who again aren't going to benefit from a custodial sentence.

Also of great concern is the consideration of extrajudicial sanctions when looking at whether a youth can be incarcerated. Of course, those aren't judicial findings. They are, to a great part, discretionary. There's less procedural protection, and ultimately, a youth may be punished more harshly in the future for accepting responsibility of acts in the past.

Again, with these sentencing provisions, there will be more trials, there will be less incentive to resolve, and there will be less incentive to take responsibility, which has an impact not only on the youth and their rehabilitation but on the system as a whole.

I'll hold my remarks on potentially publication issues. I think others have spoken to those, and they flow through largely the same concerns.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Monsieur Dionne for 10 minutes.

12:50 p.m.

Prof. Jacques Dionne Professor , Department of Psychoeducation and Psychology, Université du Québec en Outaouais, As an Individual

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, committee members, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank you very much for inviting me to speak to you.

Like every member of the public, when the media report a heinous crime, whether committed by a young person or an adult, my first reaction is to hope that the person guilty of the crime will be punished very severely, and I sometimes even think the expression "very severely" would not be adequate for the seriousness of the harm done to victims or the anger I feel. But as in many other situations in life, our first impulsive reaction is rarely the right one, and in many cases, the consequences may be the complete opposite of what we want. Life teaches us that in situations like that, it is important to stop and think.

I do understand the need felt by some members of the public and some parliamentarians to believe that toughening the Act will provide better protection for victims of crimes committed by young people, but it would be a serious mistake to believe that and to proceed to amend the Act on that basis.

My core message is that rehabilitating the young offender and protecting the victim are two sides of the same coin. It isn't an either-or choice, as the public discourse would currently have us believe; it is both one and the other, when it comes to protecting the victim and rehabilitating the young offender. In other words, the best way to protect victims is to rehabilitate young offenders. I therefore strongly support the position stated by Mr. Dudding of the Child Welfare League, who spoke a little earlier about clause 3 of the bill.

In what capacity am I appearing before you? I am wearing three hats: first, as an researcher studying the development and evaluation of leading edge practices in the rehabilitation of young offenders; second, as an educator involved in the rehabilitation of young offenders for over 40 years; and third, as a member of the public and grandfather of grandchildren.

As a researcher, first, I would like to highlight a few facts. All of the literature on intervention with adolescents shows, first, that nearly all adolescents, and I would ask some of you to remember this, commit at least one criminal offence during adolescence. The research data show very clearly that 95% of boys and 75% of girls commit an offence during adolescence. Some of those offences may be serious, and even very serious, but most of these young people are able to make reparation for their acts, to develop, to become responsible citizens and not to become criminals. Only a small proportion of them, fewer than 5%, will pursue a career as young offenders and as criminals once they become adults. So it is important to realize that adolescents have multiple different development trajectories and it is important to take this into account in a youth justice system.

Second, contrary to certain beliefs conveyed in the media and elsewhere, it is possible to rehabilitate young offenders, and it works. There are very good programs and effective methods for doing that. Canada is even a world leader in terms of prevention and in alternative justice and rehabilitation methods. In terms of rehabilitation and open custody, for over 30 years, nearly 65% of young people who participated in the program at Boscoville, in Montreal, did not reoffend after their time at that institution.

In more recent experience dealing with serious instances of crimes committed in the community at the Centre jeunesse de Montréal, we have achieved similar and even slightly better results. Research data show that contrary to what was said a few minutes ago, rehabilitation programs work with young offenders if conditions are placed on them. However, when those figures were collected, they also measured young people who had simply been placed in detention with no treatment or rehabilitation. In that case, over 90% of the young people reoffended within a few months after their placement.

The use of deterrent sentences, as shown by a multitude of studies, produces no results and results contrary to the desired effects. Not only does this not protect society, it worsens youth crime.

In order for interventions with young offenders to be effective, that is, for them to succeed in preventing recidivism and promote reparations to victims and harmonious reintegration of the offender, there are some essential prerequisites. The first is that the criminal justice system must be different from the adult justice system. All of the scientific and professional literature shows very clearly the extent to which a young person is not yet an adult, that they have not finished developing, not just in physical terms but also in cognitive and emotional terms, and thus that they have needs that are different from adults' needs.

The second prerequisite is that the entire criminal justice system be guided by the principle of differential intervention. The principle of differential intervention means that because not all young offenders are the same and they do not all have the same needs, the intervention must take those differences into account. For example, a young person with a minor delinquency profile who was placed in a secure custody institution with intensive intervention would be at risk of leaving the program with a more serious delinquency profile. Conversely, a young person with a serious delinquency profile for whom only minor intervention is used will have a strong chance of engaging in more serious delinquency afterward.

It has also been shown that certain intervention methods work well with certain types of young offenders but are ineffective with other types of young people. That is why it is important to adapt the intervention to the young person's delinquency profile.

If the law is to punish the severity of the offence, it must also allow for the young person's profile and needs to be taken into account. A formula that would also be an objective was suggested in Quebec, in response to the report by Judge Jasmin: the right measure at the right time for the right young person.

Researchers elsewhere in the world, and particularly here in Canada, have developed assessment methodologies that make it possible to get a better idea of the risks of recidivism and the needs of these young offenders—Andrews and Bonta, among others. These methodologies are necessary and we have them, and they have proved their usefulness. It is important that before sentencing a young person, allowance be made for using methodologies like these to assess each offender's situation. That would mean that the sentence would be based not only on the seriousness of the offence, but also on the needs of each young offender and on their chances of being rehabilitated and not reoffending.

And in addition to all that, it is important that the criminal justice system offer various forms of intervention, ranging from alternative justice methods and mechanisms, mediation with victims and community service to rehabilitation on probation and open or secure custody, all of which is currently possible under the YCJA, without amending it.

As an educator, I worked for 20 years as a psychoeducator at Boscoville in Montreal. For several decades, Boscoville has been a beacon in the rehabilitation of young offenders. The institution has had tremendous influence not only in Quebec, but also internationally, to an extraordinary extent. My experience in that institution involved working with and getting to know a large number of young people who had extremely positive experiences with rehabilitation and social reintegration. That is the case for most of the ones I have known. Of course there are very sad cases that failed. For the most part, they became responsible, well integrated citizens. They are now labourers, business people, teachers, company managers and artists in various fields. Some of them are have families of their own and are happy and proud to come and introduce their offspring to us, their former teachers. Most of the young people who successfully completed rehabilitation have also taken action to make reparation to their victims, during or after the rehabilitation process. I think full rehabilitation necessarily requires some effort to make reparations to the victims, directly or indirectly.

Fifty years ago, educators in the vanguard went and got young people who had been placed in Bordeaux prison in Montreal to give them a chance to take part in a new rehabilitation program they were creating. Personally, over the years, I have had the opportunity to visit young teenagers placed in adult prisons in the United States, in Chile and in other countries. Every time, I saw how terrible a situation it was, how degrading and how disrespectful of the fundamental rights of those young people. Those consequences are terrible for them, for their victims and for society. For these young people in prison, one of the worst consequences is to find themselves in a situation in which they are in despair, and that can only exacerbate their delinquency and violence.

For the victims, the human degradation of the young offender provides no real relief and may even heighten their fear of a recurrence of the violence committed by the young person when they get out of prison. The same is true for society in general.

A just law therefore must not base the assessment of the act and the sentence imposed on a young person exclusively on the seriousness of the offence. That is where this bill goes wrong. A just law must be based on a complex youth criminal justice system that is constantly trying to strike the difficult balance between the needs of society and victims and the needs of the young offender. That complex system, and this is where the government may have a job to do, should include a system for administering the law in which there is a series of components: first, a differential assessment process based on the principle that each young person is different, that each case is different; second, a multimodal system of intervention that includes the possibility of alternative justice measures, mediation, reparations to the victim, etc., and rehabilitation; third, a process that allows victims to participate and provides them with the support they need; fourth, a structure that encourages parents to participate and be involved; fifth, rehabilitation programs while under supervision, while being intensively monitored in the community, and while in open and secure custody, administered by competent personnel; and sixth, an investment in research to promote the development of best practices and to evaluate the effects of the law.

To conclude, as a member of the public and a grandfather, I am concerned that our laws be just, both for the welfare of society and for the protection and development of my grandchildren and other people's grandchildren. If one of my grandchildren commits an offence, I would fervently hope that not only the seriousness of their offence, but also their needs, will be taken into account. My fondest wish would be that we help them to rehabilitate themselves and make reparation for their criminal act or acts. In the event that one of my grandchildren was a victim, I think my first reaction would be a desire for revenge, but once that passed, I would sincerely hope that whoever assaulted them would get help and be able to rehabilitate themselves. In holding this dialogue about Bill C-4, we must not lose sight of the fact that the future welfare of our society depends on the welfare of our children and grandchildren.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We'll go to Ms. Mendes for seven minutes.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank you all very much for being here and for your presentations. I am not really surprised to see that you are unanimous in your views. I think it is fairly clear. We were not expecting anything else. I don't think you have made a single argument that I could oppose or be against. I would like to have clarify a few little things and I have a question for whoever would like to answer. Do you think this bill is necessary?

Do you think it's a necessary bill?

1 p.m.

Professor , Department of Psychoeducation and Psychology, Université du Québec en Outaouais, As an Individual

Prof. Jacques Dionne

I think it is much too precipitous and not appropriate because at present it is part of a reactive movement. It is important that we be able to step back and think about it. The YCJA has been enacted, efforts have been made to determine and evaluate the Act's effects, by doing research. If we waited until we had the empirical results of the evaluations that are being done or are in preparation, we might be in a much better position, in a year or two or three years, to implement or improve the existing system so that it would be even better at meeting the two objectives, protecting society and making reparations to victims and also rehabilitating young people and prevention.

1:05 p.m.

Lawyer, Barreau du Québec

Dominique Trahan

On that point, it has always been said, over the years, that the public has to be informed about what we want to do with young people. From one new act to the next, that aspect has never been met.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

In how the public is informed, in this case, I think it is important to make people understand that in terms of the social costs, rehabilitation is much more profitable than punishment or incarceration. That is one of the main objectives, after what you are saying.

1:05 p.m.

Lawyer, Barreau du Québec

Dominique Trahan

In fact, that is part of the information that should be conveyed to society.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

I don't recall which of you talked about strengthening what we have that is working. Could you talk about that in more detail?

1:05 p.m.

Director, Regroupement des organismes de justice alternative du Québec

Serge Charbonneau

I would like to pursue that point. I said the Act is young. We are starting to get a handle on all of the provisions of the Act. Certainly there were approaches in terms of services to victims that started with the Young Offenders Act. We really put the emphasis on developing those measures and made arrangements for informing victims of crime. So information is not just information for the public.

A lot of arrangements were made elsewhere in Canada, as we did in Quebec, to inform victims about what is happening, the things being done with the young person, and to a certain extent the programs that might be used to influence the young person's behaviour. That is already working, as Mr. Dionne described. We know too that there are rehabilitation programs, but there are also programs for reparation and mediation that are working very well.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Are they working in both senses, that is, not just for the offender, but also for the victim?

1:05 p.m.

Director, Regroupement des organismes de justice alternative du Québec

Serge Charbonneau

Exactly. I think we are starting to understand something. The youth criminal justice system consists of the procedural provisions for young people, but it is also a system of justice for victims.

On that point, we can congratulate the government, because it is becoming increasingly aware of this. These provisions of the YCJA, which we found encouraging and to which we have adapted very well, have to be strengthened, to promote participation by victims. Victims participate, even in extrajudicial measures or in relation to specific sentences.

Elsewhere in Canada, as some of my Canadian colleagues can tell you, victims participate in the pre-sentence report, in meetings with the young people, at the request of judges, Crown counsel or probation officers. Victims want to participate at those stages, and it works. We should support the elements that are working and that are being transformed...

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

And that are already provided in the Act.

1:05 p.m.

Director, Regroupement des organismes de justice alternative du Québec

Serge Charbonneau

...and that are already provided in the Act.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

From what you understand of the bill, who defines violent crime or offences? Who will make that definition?

1:05 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Michael Spratt

The definition as it stands in this bill is very broad. It includes threats, it includes substantial likelihood of harm and concepts such as that.

When we look from the prosecution side, there will be some discretion vesting in whomever the crown attorney is prosecuting to decide from their perspective if that definition is met, and ultimately a judicial officer will make that determination.

Part of the problem is that when we're looking at detention of youth prior to that judicial determination, do they get bail or not? Quite often a justice of the peace determines whether one should be released or not, and at that very early stage, this bill casts the net too wide, especially in the definition of serious offences.

You had asked earlier if what we have now works. We've heard from people much more expert than I am about how rehabilitation works. I see that every day in the clients whom I work with; many young people from disadvantaged backgrounds are charged with property offences or schoolyard offences. I see how the rehabilitation works, and part of the reason I see how it works is that I never see the client again after I'm done with him.

My firm specifically has represented youth who were charged with very serious offences. We represented a youth in Ottawa charged with a very high-profile homicide. I can tell you that youth was detained, he was tried, he was sentenced as an adult. So when we're speaking about rehabilitation, it works currently, and when we're speaking about serious offences, the ability to detain and the practicalities, are these youths detained? In the vast majority of cases, they are.

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC

Thank you very much.

Do I still have time?

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

That's it. Sorry about that.

We move on to Monsieur Lemay for seven minutes.

1:10 p.m.

Bloc

Marc Lemay Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you very much for being here today. I don't want to talk for too long, because I want to leave more time for you.

Mr. Dionne or Mr. Charbonneau, I would like to hear your comments. If I have time, I will also have a question for the representatives of the Barreau.

Do you believe that there can be complete rehabilitation of a young person, with the existing Act, if they are not sensitive to what happens to the victims of the crime they have committed?

1:10 p.m.

Professor , Department of Psychoeducation and Psychology, Université du Québec en Outaouais, As an Individual

Prof. Jacques Dionne

The rehabilitation process is a process designed to do exactly that. To begin with, a young offender is so egocentric and primary in the way they function that the victim doesn't figure in their concerns, other than because they were arrested. So the rehabilitation process means that along the way, gradually, they can start to open up to other people and realize that other people exist, and develop a capacity in terms of social skills, the capacity to put themselves in someone else's shoes. When they are able to do that, they are ready to embark on a process with the victim. The processes involving the victim can be part of alternative justice projects, where there is incredible creativity. If the offence is relatively minor, say, a young person who did something stupid that had much more serious consequences than they thought, that young person will be sensitive, and in many cases meeting or working with the victim will in itself be an extremely rewarding rehabilitation exercise, and, I would also say, an exercise in education and maturity for the young person.

However, for a young person who is a very disturbed repeat offender, it will take several weeks, several months, before they show any concern for the victim, and that is where something can be done with the victim. That is why I said a few minutes ago that the process with the victim can take place during or afterward, at the end of the rehabilitation process. It requires a certain amount of time to be done.