Justice Committee on June 1st, 2010

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Megan, you talked about stiffer sentences. I assume that is for identical crimes?

[Megan Forward]

Yes. Statistics have shown that where aboriginal and white youth have been accused of committing the same crime as black youth, and actually have identical criminal records, it has often resulted in harsher punishments for the African Canadian youth.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Dudding, I wonder if you could use my last bit of time to talk about proportionality. If the sentences were not unconstitutional for adults, why would they be unconstitutional for youth?

[Peter Dudding]

The key concept of proportionality, of course, was to address a historical situation in terms of the youth sentencing--as we've heard from our colleagues--being highly disproportional.

The concern here actually is to move the hands of time in the reverse direction so that we're going to be incarcerating youth for a much longer period of time now in the interests of public safety. You know, there's nothing in the annals of criminology, in the social science evidence, to show that's a successful approach to keeping young people rehabilitated or the community safe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Monsieur Ménard for seven minutes.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I was very pleased to hear your presentations. I think they are clear, and personally, I can tell you that I share your opinions for many reasons. I will start by answering a question rather than asking you a question.

Why does it not into account the progress that has been made regarding juvenile delinquency since the present Act was passed? Because unfortunately, nothing is being said about rehabilitation. The general public only notices when the system fails and thinks that youth crime is actually rising and becoming increasingly dangerous. I said earlier and I think you realize this: rehabilitation is anonymous, but failure has a face. If that face is not the face of the offender, it is at least the face of the victim, but it is that face that ends up in the newspapers, in the media-heavy world we live in and will continue to live in. We are very grateful to have people like you, who work with young offenders every day, to recommend the best approaches for us to take.

Mr. Laperrière, you mentioned that the Quebec method has a global reputation. Can you tell us how you came to hold that opinion, that is, that the Quebec method has great value that is recognized not only in Canada, but abroad?

[Yves Laperrière]

It's from what I see every day. As I said earlier, I manage the team of probation officers and the custody unit. Every day, I spend time with the young people in the custody unit, I see them change over time and I see the impact of the programs on them. I am directly involved in the unit's programs, in the young people's schedule, in the clinical activities they are offered, and in the structure, from when they are first incarcerated until they complete their supervision in the community.

So that is how the reality of that success is expressed for me: I see the tangible changes in a young person who had problems and whom we get to a place where they can live autonomously...

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Excuse me for interrupting, we have so little time.

You are telling us the reasons why you are convinced of its value. What I was asking, actually, was how you became certain that the system was recognized outside of where you are, in the rest of Canada and elsewhere in the world.

[Yves Laperrière]

I will describe some of the comments made to me by the Association des centres jeunesse du Québec which has more to do with promotion on the world stage. As I was saying, in the last year, we have hosted delegations. One of the delegations I accompanied myself was of a group of women from South America who came to see on site how our system works, what the day to day reality looked like, both on the outside and in the custody unit. Just a few weeks ago, our provincial director went to Jamaica with Mr. Dionne, from the university, whom you will hear from later, and a representative of our alternative justice system, to make a presentation about how our system actually works, in terms of the mediation approach and so on. Those are concrete examples of people from other countries who come to us, who have direct contact with us.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Ms. Forward, I would like to hear what you have to say about the success of your program for people in the black community.

[Megan Forward]

As I mentioned before, the portion of our work that consists of the African Canadian youth justice program has multiple parts. We have a number of staff who are working in the court system as court workers, most of whom are African Canadian themselves. In the courthouses they provide a very non-intimidating, relatable presence that young offenders and their families can go to for advice on how to proceed with their charges and what their rights are as young offenders.

In addition, the clinic offers a wide range of Afrocentric programs that focus on issues such as anger management, and there is a certain amount of life skills training in order to get to the root of the reasons the young people are reoffending and to try to address that. It's actually a court-recognized diversion project. There is also a reintegration component specifically for older youth, not adults, to help them get back on their feet and develop some skills once they leave the correctional system.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Dudding, you talked about the amendment proposed to subparagraph 3(1)(a)(i) in particular, "holding young persons accountable through measures that are proportionate".

[Peter Dudding]

That's right.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

You may have noticed that virtually identical provisions already exist, word for word, in paragraph 38(2)(c) of the existing act, but there it's to guide the judge in sentencing.

If I understand your position correctly, by moving that provision from paragraph 38(2)(c) to paragraph 3(1)(a), and particularly by removing what was already in that paragraph, it is radically changing the philosophy of the Young Offenders Act. Is that correct, Mr. Dudding?

[Peter Dudding]

That's correct. By putting it in section 3, which is about the primary purposes of the act, you have now changed in essence how the other provisions of this act are to be interpreted and understood. That's a very profound change, in my opinion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

I'm sorry, but you're at the end of your time.

Ms. Leslie, you have seven minutes.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for your testimony today. It's been very helpful.

My name is Megan Leslie, and I'm the member of Parliament for Halifax.

To the ACLC, first, I think it's incredible that we're actually looking at this legislation through a race-based lens. I really want to say thanks for coming and testifying.

The amendments here are trying to address the problem of persistent offenders. I recognize that we don't want to paint all young offenders with the same persistent offender brush, but we have heard that the majority of offences by youth are actually by these persistent offenders.

Recommendation 22 from Nunn actually recommends that when you're looking at pretrial detention, you consider patterns of offences versus patterns of findings of guilt, because that's what happened with Archie Billard in the Theresa McEvoy case.

You said in your testimony that African Canadian youth are charged more often, picked up more often, and harassed more often. When I read the Nunn recommendation, I think that's a good recommendation--let's look at patterns of offences versus guilt, so that we can stop the Archie Billard situations--but I'm wondering what the implications are for racialized communities, in particular for African Canadian youth and, I would argue, aboriginal youth.

Could you share with us your thoughts on the Nunn recommendation, and also on the changes to the bill?

[Megan Forward]

Well, from our perspective, the whole issue of what's now been recognized judicially is a problem of racial profiling. That's what we're talking about; that's the crux of the whole matter, that these extrajudicial measures or patterns of offences, unlike findings of guilt by a jury and judge, are not based on objective factors, they're based on measures that a police officer deems to be sufficient punishment for the youth. We're worried that it's going to disproportionately target the African Canadian community. The effect this has, this increased interaction, this stacking up of offences, makes young people resentful of the justice system, it makes them distrust criminal justice officials. If they are sent to youth correctional facilities, they may be exposed to hardened criminals, they're taken away from their families, from their culture, from their programming, and they're also disheartened. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Mr. Dudding, I see you nodding quite a bit. Did you want to add to that?

[Peter Dudding]

Please--particularly in reference to the case of Archie. In that circumstance, there were plenty of reasons that Archie could have been held, and should have been held, in the Windsor, Nova Scotia, courthouse where he was--save for a fax machine, that I understand was broken. But the reality is that he was released into the community with no plan in place. Boop, there he was, out, and had to make his own way back from Windsor to Halifax. There were provisions within the current YCJA.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Then is that recommendation needed?

[Peter Dudding]

It's not.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

It's not. Okay. Thanks.

Also, Mr. Dudding, you mentioned that the primary purpose of protection of the public isn't consistent with recommendation 20 from Nunn, and I'm wondering if you have thoughts about that. First of all, are you okay with that recommendation in Nunn, and secondly, do you think that looking at short-term protection of the public will have a negative implication on the long-term protection of the public?

[Peter Dudding]

I'll answer the second question first because it's a simpler one. Yes, I think that trying to enforce short-term protection will lead to greater incarceration and I think to a whole known trajectory.

Back to the first part of this, I think it's very tricky. It's very tricky; your question is a bit like Mr. Ménard's questions. It was quite intentional, in terms of the crafting of the YCJA, that the twin principles of rehabilitation and reintegration were there and public safety was not. When you begin to put that principle in, I can tell you which one is going to trump the others, and, as a result of doing so, where that's going to take us.

[Megan Leslie, NDP, Halifax, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Laperrière, you spoke about the sense of invulnerability, the limited ability to reason; young people don't think they'll be caught. Probably all of us anecdotally know those things to be true about young people.

Who are you relying on to make those statements? Are there particular psychologists, psychological reports, or studies that you rely upon generally to say, yes, this is the way young people think and act and react?