Evidence of meeting #21 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was public.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
Yes, I'm nodding, but I'm also thinking that part of the concern we had with most of the amendments is that it is based on one report as well.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
II would like to know if you think that, with the current provisions, judges are able to make the most appropriate decisions for that small group of violent and dangerous offenders?
Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
I would say yes.
Conservative
NDP
Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much for your testimony. You raise a good perspective in pointing out that true consultation wasn't done and that consultation is needed.
Mr. Elman, you said that perhaps you could get into the nitty-gritty of some aspects of the bill during questions.
Ms. Tustin, you said a publication ban is one of the things that you believe violates the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Can you let us know if other amendments or other pieces of this bill violate that convention, in your opinion?
Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
Yes, we just mentioned article 3 in the preamble. Article 16 and article 3 are two of the major ones.
NDP
Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS
I don't know them by article. Can you tell me what the subject is, like denunciation insurance?
Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
Article 3 is that the best interest of the child is to be the primary concern in making decisions that affect youth. Putting the protection of public safety first is violating that article.
Article 16 is the right to privacy, and the publication ban lifts that right to privacy.
NDP
Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS
Do you think the change is about deterrence and denunciation, adding those into the bill? The principles in sentencing, do you think that's at odds with the convention?
Advocate for Children and Youth, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
Yes. We didn't get an opportunity to go through the specific pieces of the bill we have concerns with--it's in the written piece--but, yes, deterrence and denunciation are two of them.
NDP
Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS
Okay.
My last question is for Mr. Elman.
If the crown must consider adult sentences, and then give a reason why they're not going to pursue adult sentences, when you were working with young people at the grassroots level, face to face, how did you see that mandatory consideration impacting the relationship between crown and youth?
Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
I'm trying to understand the question you're asking.
NDP
Megan Leslie NDP Halifax, NS
It's okay. I haven't been that clear. I understand.
If there's a change to the act that says the crown has to consider an adult sentence for youth, and if they're not going to recommend an adult sentence, then they have to explain why. Do you think that would alter the relationship, if there is a relationship between crown and youth, or do you think it would alter the experience that youth have going through the justice system?
Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
I would say of course. It sets up the crown certainly as the enemy of the young person who is considering making a determination that would not be what the youth probably would consider is in his best interest. That's how I would answer that.
I'm not convinced that the YCJA is working well. We don't know. It's like a car I might have bought that I always wanted, a Mustang, and it's in my garage. You ask me how my car has been and I'd say I hadn't driven it yet. It looked good, but I couldn't tell you, and I didn't have any gas for it.
In terms of the provinces, and from talking to my colleagues, implementation of the YCJA needs some gas, it needs some resources. We can't tell how well it's working. Some of the issues that created the situation that forced the Nunn commission to come into being were a lack of resources.
We need to ensure that resources are in place to implement the act, and that's why consultation is so important, to understand where we're at in implementing the act before we change it. We're in the right direction, but our worry is that we're shifting course before we get to port.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I notice we're right at 1:30, so I'll try to abridge my remarks a bit.
I want to speak to Mr. Elman. I appreciate your comments and I've been impressed by your sincerity. I know you have it in your heart to advocate for children; that comes through loud and clear.
I wonder if you have ever had the opportunity to speak to or counsel a parent whose child has been beaten to death.
Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
I would say I have met, I wouldn't say in that particular circumstance, but, yes, I've met victims. I've met parents of victims--
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
The question was a parent whose child had been beaten to death.
Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
Not beaten to death, no.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I asked that question because we had an opportunity to speak to a parent whose child had been beaten to death, and in the aftermath, what was even worse was that she had another child—I forget if the other child was 11 years old, or something in that range—who was threatened by other young people and who ultimately had shots fired at him from a vehicle and was simply terrorized. The evidence was that perhaps there might be something we could do to improve the law to assist 11-year-olds or other young children who find themselves in that situation.
What improvements to the Youth Criminal Justice Act would you propose to protect children who are terrorized by such violence?
Provincial Advocate, Office of the Provincial Advocate for Children and Youth (Ontario)
That's a good question.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
It's the question we're here to answer, by the way.
