Justice Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

—permits, in order to do so. That's for the benefit of the folks at home.

Going back to the special program, the 258 vehicles stolen, I guess it wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to say that with this legislation, if adopted and passed as it is to give you those powers, we could start to add zeros to the end of that 258 because now your CBSA folks would have the legislative tools necessary in order for them to begin to put an end to the export of these vehicles, which—and you can correct me if I'm wrong—actually forms a great part of organized crime in this country.

Would that be a reasonable statement that you would be able to make or we would be able to make to the Canadian people?

[Caroline Xavier]

It would be reasonable to state that definitely with the authorities, we'll be able to be more effective with our law enforcement partners. How that will materialize in terms of numbers and volume is the question mark. The bonus is that because our law enforcement partners know that we'll have the ability to do this verification check against their database, for example, they know that when they get this call from us with regard to a suspected stolen vehicle, it will be on credible grounds because we'll have done the preliminary analysis. It will not be for nothing that they're coming to the border, for example, to seize that good.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

The other thing is the intelligence gathering. A lot of people think that it's a clandestine thing, intelligence is scary. In policing we used to call different intelligence white intelligence: white intelligence is intelligence that's available to anybody, whether it's a newspaper or posted on a wall. When you say you don't gather intelligence, would I be stretching it to say that if you or your officials saw something that—I'll use your terminology now—wasn't kosher, and you thought it might be of interest to a police agency or others, there is an in-house system to get that information passed on? Or do you leave it up to the person who wants to make that phone call?

[Caroline Xavier]

I think that's a fair comment.

What I meant about “gathering intelligence” was just to make sure that it was clear that we're not mandated to be in the intelligence-gathering business. I guess that's the clarity I wanted to provide.

You're right that as part of our business on a daily basis, all the information we're looking at, whether it's advanced commercial information coming in or some other, is a form of intelligence. So you're right. When doing our business on a regular basis, observing things, gathering some form of information and intelligence, if in the exercise of looking at an export container we were to come across something that would be deemed intelligence information, we would proceed to share it with our local enforcement partners or the RCMP, depending who would be the appropriate partner to make contact with on that particular case. So yes, that would be part of what we would do.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

For the benefit of the people at home, you also would receive information from other sources, not only local police, not only national police, but do you have information sharing with your American counterparts because we share that border, especially in the Windsor area?

[Caroline Xavier]

There are definitely information-sharing parameters in place with the various partners you've mentioned; yes, that is correct.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

Do we want to do another round?

Monsieur Lemay?

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Chair, I told you that I wanted to ask a question.

Ms. Xavier, I am very interested in what you are saying. The bill is going to be passed, I can tell you that. When it comes into effect, what is going to change in your life every day? A little earlier, you said that you would take a look if the declaration was...Are you going to wait for containers to be checked? If not, are you going to be proactive and make sure that the act is enforced?

[Caroline Xavier]

We are going to keep doing what we currently do and we are going to be proactive. But the new provisions will let us check police databases. If we find a car in a container, we are going to be able to check whether it has been stolen. At the moment, we cannot do that. When we call the local police, we will be able to confirm that we have found a container with a stolen car in it. That will at least give them some evidence to start with and they will be able to begin their investigation.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You said that, in 2008, you did a pilot project under an agreement with the RCMP. That is quite extraordinary. You looked at only 281 containers, but there are millions of them. It means that a number of stolen vehicles have already gone overseas.

[Caroline Xavier]

That is difficult to say, because we do not know.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Take the ones in Abbotsford. There were a lot of them, including Mr. Fast's Mercedes.

[Caroline Xavier]

I feel that that is part of the problem. We do not know how serious the problem is. We have to become more effective in order to find out.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

The reason for passing this bill is that there is an immediate need. We know that vehicles are sent overseas.

What about parts? That will be my last question.

[Caroline Xavier]

Yes, that will be covered in the act, a vehicle or vehicle parts.

[Marc Lemay, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Great. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

For the record, I have never owned a Mercedes or a BMW, although I'm envious of those who do.

Mr. Lee, are you done?

Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I have a quick question, if I may. I was interested in Monsieur Ménard's recalling that the minimum penalty in relation to auto theft may have been removed in 1985. So I wanted to ask the Statistics Canada witness, if she could direct her attention to table1, which appears to state police-reported motor vehicle thefts in Canada from 1977 to 2009, whether I am correctly apprehending and understanding that in 1985 the rate of police-reported motor vehicle thefts in Canada jumped from about 299 per 100,000 population to about 318 per 100,000 population. Am I reading that correctly?

[Julie McAuley]

Yes, you are reading that correctly.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

And it seems to me that in 2009 the rate remains even higher than it was in 1985, at 320 per 100,000 population. Am I reading that correctly?

[Julie McAuley]

Yes, you are.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

That's my question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you. I want to thank all of our witnesses for appearing here. Your testimony is helpful as we move to clause-by-clause.

We'll take a two-minute break. We'll suspend for two minutes to allow justice department officials to take their places. The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

I reconvene the meeting.

We're moving to clause-by-clause consideration of Bill S-9, an act to amend the Criminal Code for auto theft and trafficking in property obtained by crime.

Monsieur Petit.