Evidence of meeting #31 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
—“our law enforcement powers”, and I take it that you're referring to your powers under the Customs Act, the Food and Drugs Act—
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Secretariat Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
That would be correct.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
—and the existing statutes? There is no other statute?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Secretariat Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
No, that would be correct.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Now, you also referred to the term “prohibited goods”.
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Secretariat Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Could you describe their relevance to the issue of exporting stolen automobiles before the statute would take effect? In other words, what is it about this term “prohibited goods” that's relevant to us here? What are prohibited goods, and what authority would CBSA have under the legislation to deal with or respond in some way to a prohibited good leaving the country?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Corporate Secretariat Directorate, Canada Border Services Agency
Did you want to comment, Mr. Borland?
3:50 p.m.
Counsel, Canada Border Services Agency
Sure.
I guess I'll start with something, and then I'll get to the prohibited goods issue.
In section 101 of the Customs Act it mentions three specific terms, “prohibits, controls or regulates”. So one would be prohibited, one would be controlled, and the other term is “regulated”. When it comes to a particular item, such as a restricted or prohibited firearm, that would be prohibited from import unless the persons importing the item met certain criteria. You may have certain types of drugs—
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
Okay, just to be really focused, I'm talking about exports. What is a prohibited good in relation to exports?
3:50 p.m.
Counsel, Canada Border Services Agency
The CBSA's detention powers actually work on both inbound and outbound or exported goods. It's the same provision that authorizes the CBSA to detain items that are either coming in or going out to determine their compliance with the legislation. There are a variety of items that would be considered, at a minimum, to be controlled upon export, such as dual-use goods, or goods that could be used for a legitimate civilian purpose in one context but also could be used for a military purpose in another. Those items would be controlled and their exportation would require a specific permit and that certain conditions be met. Items such as heroin or cocaine would be items that are not only illegal to import into Canada but also illegal to export, because they are considered to be controlled items or prohibited items.
What essentially we're doing with this legislation, and particularly with section 355.3, is to follow the lead of countries such as New Zealand, which explicitly make it prohibited to import and export stolen property, particularly stolen vehicles. So with this legislation, the importation or exportation of these types of items would be prohibited and the CBSA officers would have the legal authority to stop the items as they come in to determine whether or not they actually are prohibited items--i.e., are stolen--and if that's the case, they would contact the local police force or the RCMP, who would then deal with these particular items as evidence of an offence.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON
I'm still a little confused about outgoing goods. I understand how everything incoming would be subject to inspection and whatever, but for outgoing goods, there's no outgoing tax. There's no tax if it's not a food or a drug. It's not subject to any of the statutes you operate under for food and drugs, immigration, and customs.
Could you please nail down for me the jurisdiction that you would have to interfere with something in Canada being removed, either on a ship or by a truck or on a car on a road? Where would your authority come from?
3:55 p.m.
Counsel, Canada Border Services Agency
The outbound search powers do come from the Customs Act. Under section 101, which I mentioned earlier, CBSA officers have the authority to detain items that are leaving the country. But there are also search or examination powers under the Customs Act. These examination powers concern both goods that are coming into and leaving Canada. So there are powers under the Customs Act in—
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
3:55 p.m.
Counsel, Canada Border Services Agency
The examination powers would apply to all goods. However, there are certain conditions that must be met on export.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Ed Fast
Thank you very much.
We'll move on to Monsieur Ménard, for seven minutes.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Ms. McAuley, I have a lot of respect for Statistics Canada. But before legislation is amended, I really like to know how it is applied. I find that the studies you conduct are very useful, but when I get them and have to read them while you are talking, it is quite difficult for me to form ideas.
In the future, would it be possible for you to send us these statistics a few days ahead of time so that we can then ask you meaningful questions? I say this because I feel that these are very important matters.
Michel de Montaigne said that laws should be touched only with a quivering hand. When we touch them, I prefer that we do so, not because of partisan politics, but to solve a genuine problem. I think that the statistical aspect is one we must consider.
That said, it is relatively simple in this case. I have looked at the statistics that you have given us and I would like to know if I would be wrong to say that most motor vehicle thefts are committed by minors.
October 26th, 2010 / 3:55 p.m.
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
As you can see on slide 5, every year we can look at the number or the age of the persons who are accused of police-reported motor vehicle theft, and we can do this over time. Consistently we have seen that the graph is skewed to people who are in the younger age groups, and we collect the data starting for persons age 12 onward. And we can provide the committee, if you would like, with a time series of this information so you will be able to look at any variability in those trends.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
I do not think that minimum sentences are the issue for minors because they have to be dealt with in juvenile court. Most of the people who commit those crimes would therefore not be subject to minimum sentences under adult legislation.
4 p.m.
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
In terms of youth who are accused, in 2009 it was approximately three of ten persons would be of the age 12 to 17. So they would be tried under the Youth Criminal Justice Act.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
That may not be the case, but I am old enough to have been practicing law when car theft was punishable by a minimum prison term. I know that things have changed.
I was particularly surprised by section 335 or its equivalent. I was under the impression that taking a motor vehicle without the owner's permission and depriving the owner of his property, as in the case of joy-riding, was still theft. What justifies section 335? It creates the specific crime of motor vehicle theft. When I was a young lawyer, I was told that it was a charge used in order to avoid a minimum sentence. I don't remember what that sentence was.
You seem to be younger than me. Do you remember when the minimum sentence for car theft was abolished?
4 p.m.
Craig Grimes Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
I'm not aware of a minimum for auto theft. It's not something I've researched. I know that for auto theft, in looking at the court data, the only options are sections 334 or 335, and the annotations in the code suggest that either section would be appropriate, depending on the circumstances. So those become policing issues.
4 p.m.
Bloc
Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC
Has there been an increase in car theft in Canada since the minimum sentence was abolished?
You could have checked that. You would have to look at 1985, because that was the year when it was removed.
4 p.m.
Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
We would be happy to go back and confirm that for you and provide that information to the clerk for distribution.