Evidence of meeting #33 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was application.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Giokas  Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
Catherine Kane  Director General and Senior General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right.

I want to thank our witnesses, Mr. Giokas as well as Ms. Kane, for spending their time with us this afternoon.

We are now going to move to another bill, Bill C-389.

Rather than suspending, I would ask you to focus your attention on Bill C-389, clause by clause.

As a reminder to everybody, we have scheduled a delegation from Namibia for an hour after this meeting. Those of you who can stay, please stay. It's a good opportunity to exchange information on our relative and respective justice systems.

How do you want to proceed from here? We have the bill in front of us.

Mr. Comartin.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Mr. Chair, as a result of discussions I've had with the government side, I'm proposing that we deal with this clause-by-clause immediately. I have a motion to carry that out, which I would ask to be able to present at this point.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Please do.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

It would simply read this way: that the title and clauses 1 to 5 inclusively of Bill C-389 be adopted, and that the chair be ordered to report the bill to the House.

I've checked this with the Table in the House, and this would be an acceptable procedure.

Mr. Chair, that's what I would propose we do at this time.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right, Mr. Comartin.

I'm advised, first of all, that there are only four clauses to carry rather than five. Apparently they were misnumbered.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Not in my version of the bill.

Oh, I see what's happened.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

If you look at your version of the bill, you will notice there's a 3 where there shouldn't be.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

Yes.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

So the clauses you have shown as 4 and 5 should show 3 and 4, on the next page.

I'm assuming your motion was intended to reflect that.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

It is, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

I'm also advised that apparently the bill has to be dealt with clause by clause. With the unanimous consent of the committee, we could do it under one motion, but I would need unanimous consent from everyone at the table.

You've heard Mr. Comartin's motion. Are you prepared to deal with it with one motion, or do you want to deal with it clause by clause?

Mr. Murphy.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

No.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Mr. Murphy, go ahead.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

No.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

I guess it's not unanimous.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

So it's not unanimous, Mr. Lee.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

No.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right. Then we'll have to deal with it clause by clause.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

I don't see that there's a major time problem here. I'm a little bit confused about why we want to deal with it in just one motion.

I have a question about the bill, and I want to get it on the record, so let's not waste time.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right. Please get it on the record.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Okay. Mr. Siksay is here.

The amendments to the Canadian Human Rights Act that his bill proposes use fairly normal English and French words, as far as I can determine. But there isn't anywhere in the bill, although there may be in his possession, what I would call a definition or a description of the terms he is inserting into the bill. The two terms are “gender identity” and “gender expression”. In the absence of a dictionary nearby to explain them, he might well be able to do this, because there may well be out there what I would call generally accepted definitions or explanations of those terms. We just don't have them here on the record. They may have been given at second reading. I don't know.

If he could just go through those quickly, that would probably satisfy me and the record.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Just for the record, we've invited Mr. Siksay to be here. He won't be voting.

Mr. Siksay, do you want to respond?

November 2nd, 2010 / 5:20 p.m.

NDP

Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC

Thank you, Chair, and I appreciate being able to be here today.

With regard to the issue of definitions, I think if you look at the Canadian Human Rights Act, you will find that most of the prohibited grounds of discrimination aren't defined in the act, and that's intentional. They're intended to be living definitions that look to common usage and to other jurisprudence. That's why there aren't per se definitions included in this private member's bill.

For the interest of Mr. Lee and others, there are a number of definitions of gender identity and gender expression. One that I use more often than not is that gender identity has been defined as an individual's self-conception as male or female or both or neither, as distinguished from one's birth-assigned sex. The Yogyakarta Principles, which is an international document, a United Nations document, that's well known in human rights circles, defines gender identity as referring to:

each person's deeply felt internal and individual experience of gender, which may or may not correspond with the sex assigned at birth, including the personal sense of the body (which may involve, if freely chosen, modification of bodily appearance or function by medical, surgical or other means) and other expressions of gender, including dress, speech and mannerisms.

The definition I generally use for gender expression is that gender expression refers to how a person's gender identity is communicated to others through emphasizing, de-emphasizing, or changing behaviour, dress, speech and/or mannerisms.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

We'll go back to Mr. Comartin's motion. If I have to, I'm going to....

Sorry, go ahead, Mr. Lee.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

Mr. Chair, I didn't get a chance to thank Mr. Siksay for putting that on the record.