Justice Committee on Feb. 14th, 2011

[Dr. R. Karl Hanson]

Within a matter of months. The earlier draft of this report, the earlier findings, which some people at the previous committee referenced, was part of a G-8 meeting I was involved with in 2009. That preliminary version was put up on a website at that time, but it wasn't widely distributed.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So the G-8--would that have been the MInister of Justice or the Minister of Public Safety? That's one of those preliminary meetings that we have?

[Dr. R. Karl Hanson]

Yes. It was an experts meeting held in North Carolina on the topic of Internet sex crime, and it was experts meeting, collecting the information that was available at that time, and the policies that were applied in the G-8 countries. And that information was posted on the net in 2009.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

You know, we saw it here with earlier witnesses who came before us, people who work directly with victims, and of course we get it from the Conservative Party and their right-wing pundits all the time, that every single sexual abuser is going to reoffend, that there's not one of them who doesn't.

Can you help us at all? How did we get to this stage? I don't want you to make political comments here, and I'm not asking you to do that, but is there something—I don't know—in the demographics of this? Are there other studies at some point that would take just the pedophilia, the hard-core pedophilia, and they'd say they couldn't work with them and then extrapolate from that? Are there studies like that? Is there some genesis for this gross misconception as to our ability to successfully deal with sexual abusers of children?

[Dr. R. Karl Hanson]

I can speculate. I've been around long enough to have perceived public opinion as not taking these things seriously enough. I have personally participated in trying to get people to pay attention to sexual abuse. And during that period of time, particularly the early eighties, many of my colleagues would be saying things such as “there's no cure for pedophilia”, or “once a pedophile, always a pedophile”. They were saying these things largely as an advocacy position to get people to take sex offending seriously.

Prior to the 1980s there was widespread disbelief that the rates of sex offending were as high as they actually are. You saw a major change in social values during the eighties and nineties where sex offending went from being an obscure crime to being a dominant crime, including a significant portion of federal offenders. That could be part of the genesis of this.

The other genesis of it is the actual rates of sexual victimization. If you asked individuals, or individual women particularly, a large number of them have been sexually abused. The rates may be one in four. Sometimes it's a little higher, sometimes a little lower than that. So it's a big problem. So if you are around any women and ask them questions, you'll find rates of sexual abuse that are much higher than you want them to be.

So, yes, it's a problem, and in terms of the absolute recidivism rates, it is surprising that they're a lot lower than current public opinion would attribute.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll go to Mr. Dechert, for seven minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for being here today.

Ms. Berzins, I was interested in what you had to say. Have you had an opportunity to read all the provisions of Bill C-54? Have you reviewed them?

[Lorraine Berzins]

Are you talking to me?

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Yes, I am.

[Lorraine Berzins]

Yes, I have.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay. And did you survey the membership of any of the member churches that your organization represents on the provisions of Bill C-54?

[Lorraine Berzins]

No, we didn't, because that is not the way we work.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So did you--

[Lorraine Berzins]

We have a long track record of producing reports and consultations, and consultation often over the same issues with our members--

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

So you didn't survey them.

[Lorraine Berzins]

--so for 39 years there's a lot there.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Did you receive any submissions from any of the members of those churches on the provisions of Bill C-54?

[Lorraine Berzins]

Mr. Chair, I feel that I'm being asked a question that boxes me into an answer that would not accurately reflect how my organization works.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Ms. Berzins, members of this committee are entitled to ask whatever questions they wish to, provided that they're done politely and with decorum.

[Lorraine Berzins]

I would just ask that people take into consideration that I would like it to be an accurate reflection of how we work, and a yes or no--

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Ms. Berzins, you're free to answer as you wish, but Mr. Dechert is entitled to ask questions.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I'll take it that the answer is that you didn't receive any submissions on the specific provisions in Bill C-54.

You mentioned in your opening remarks something I thought was quite interesting. You said that “uninformed people are not the people to rely on to guide you in what you should be doing on something as important as this”. Would you consider the members of the churches that your organization represents uninformed, generally speaking, on something as important as this?

[Lorraine Berzins]

I think a lot of people in our churches are not well informed, which is why we are really trying to inform them. But I meant particularly--

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you for that.

[Lorraine Berzins]

--that the people who have designed the provisions have designed them with some.... There will be unintended consequences.