Evidence of meeting #49 for Justice and Human Rights in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie McAuley  Director, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Craig Grimes  Chief and Advisor, Courts Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Mia Dauvergne  Senior Analyst, Policing Services Program, Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics, Statistics Canada
Carole Morency  Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

4:55 p.m.

Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Carole Morency

As the question has noted, yes, the proposed increase in time means the sentences would remain under two years, which would mean provincial time, so what Bill C-54 is doing is adding to what is already there.

Have officials done an assessment of what the implications might be? Yes, we have. That information was provided, and the decision you see is reflected in the bill before you. I am aware that there is the motion on costs for crime justice bills and that it is being debated in the House; that might be another opportunity to get the other information more specifically.

And no, in the course of developing Bill C-54, there were not specific consultations on that aspect; however, that said, it is fair to say that over the course of the work we do in the area of criminal law reform, we work closely with our provincial and territorial counterparts, and over the years it is generally fair to say that there is support for measures to strengthen criminal law responses to child sexual abuse. When there is disagreement, whether it's here or in other fora, it tends to be about how you achieve it.

That said, there is generally support; however, we did not consult specifically on Bill C-54.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you. I will then move to clause 3--oh, I'm sorry. I didn't notice your hands.

Mr. Murphy is first, and then we'll hear Ms. Jennings.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

To follow up what I thought was not as specific an answer as I would have liked to Mr. Lee's question, and paraphrasing you, you said you did an analysis and you provided that material, presumably to officials in the Department of Justice, who made a policy decision. I understand that.

Did the research or material that you amassed include a costing? I think his question was fairly specific. I didn't hear you say “including costing”, and I just want to be clear on that.

5 p.m.

Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Carole Morency

Whenever there's a matter that goes before cabinet for a decision on whether to come forward with reforms or a package or a response of some sort, obviously the cabinet is informed by all of the analysis that is available and required to support that decision, but I'm obviously not in a position to advise this committee of a matter that is a cabinet confidence.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Look, just to follow up on that, I'm not satisfied with that answer either, because no one is asking you to betray cabinet confidence and nobody is asking you at this point to provide the figure. The question is, were figures provided to the government?

5 p.m.

Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Carole Morency

Yes, the matter was costed out, and yes, the advice was provided to inform the decision, but as I've already noted as well, the bulk of the reforms that are presented or proposed in Bill C-54 fall within the areas of what's already in the Criminal Code now for mandatory minimum penalties. Increasing from 14 days to 90 days is an increase within that timeframe, but—

5 p.m.

Liberal

Brian Murphy Liberal Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB

Yes. That's fine. Thanks.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Thank you.

Next we have Ms. Jennings and then we have Mr. Comartin.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

I just want to make sure my colleague has finished speaking to his amendment.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Derek Lee Liberal Scarborough—Rouge River, ON

No. We're on the clause; we're not on my amendment yet.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

We're on the...?

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Ms. Jennings, we're on the main motion right now.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

The main motion...?

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

That's right. We're on clause 3.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Marlene Jennings Liberal Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC

Okay. I don't have anything to say on that.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

All right.

Mr. Comartin is next, and then Mr. Lee.

5 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I just wanted to do a follow-up to Mr. Murphy's question, in terms of the information that was given.

Was the analysis for the increased incarceration rate at both the provincial level and the federal level? There is at least the one section, on incest, in which it is five years, so they would end up in the federal prisons.

Was it done at both levels?

5 p.m.

Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

Carole Morency

Well, obviously federal responsibility is within federal corrections, but in looking at what implications there might be, we're not in a position to cost out provincial implications.

5 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

So it was just done at the federal level of incarceration?

5 p.m.

Acting General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice

5 p.m.

NDP

Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON

I'm sure this is relevant, because almost all.... I'll ask it anyway.

I'm not sure how you were able to do that, given that in the information we got from Statistics Canada today, they weren't able to separate out the adult sexual offences from the youth ones.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I have a point of order.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Go ahead on a point of order, Mr. Woodworth.

5 p.m.

Conservative

Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON

I'm not sure whether I'm following the thread of this, but I thought I understood the witness to raise an issue of cabinet confidentiality earlier, and it sounds as though Mr. Comartin is asking about the same information. If I'm right that he is, then I would think that the same issue of cabinet confidentiality is going to arise on all of his questions about it, and that the witness ought to be protected from having to receive questions that might result in a violation of cabinet confidentiality. For that reason, I'm asking you to rule his questions out of order.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Ed Fast

Well, I don't think his question is out of order. The witness has made it very clear that she will be protecting cabinet confidentiality. She's a very capable, highly intelligent individual who I know will not cross that line, so I'm going to allow Mr. Comartin to continue.