Justice Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Dr. Margaret Beare]

I want to address that, because, yes, in Toronto the criminal organization legislation has been used against those gangs, and I want to reply specifically in terms of another impact that has.

You've got Malvern, where 64 people were rounded up. That's fine and dandy. It's a street gang, and probably Malvern felt something right after that, but it had a very real impact on the criminal justice system, and I don't think that's something we fully take into account.

I had a judge come to the LLM class and talk about how you handle something like that. The traditional way that criminal justice usually operates, in terms of a bifurcation between the role of the police, the role of lawyers, the prosecution, and the judge goes out the window because they can't handle that many accused people. So you get all kinds of renegotiations and conversations that bring the judge into the justice system at a very early point.

I'm not certain that people are aware of what that kind of a takedown.... And of course we know that out of that 64, the numbers drifted away. I don't know what the result was, in terms of how many people were charged, but in the process, the criminal justice system took a big shock.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Mr. Dechert for five minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank each of the panellists for being here this afternoon.

Reverend Tiangson, it's good to see you again. I have some familiarity with the centre you operate in Mississauga, and I want to point out the very good work I believe you're doing there to help newcomer youth and youth of all descriptions, especially at-risk youth. I want to give you an opportunity to tell us in a little more detail about the types of programs you operate there.

By the way, I take your point on immigration policy and how it impacts newcomer youth. I want to thank you for that.

Also, you've heard a number of panellists suggest that legalization of marijuana is the way to go. A couple of years ago, when the former Liberal government mooted decriminalization and legalization of marijuana, Peel police officers came to me, including the Chief of Peel Police, and said to me they thought that would be a really bad idea. In their considered opinion, having run a police operation in a very large, growing, and diverse community, as you point out, for many years, it was an entry-level drug for harder drugs. Not only would it lead to the use of harder drugs, the use of the marijuana itself would lead to other social problems, like increased domestic violence and petty crime, such as theft, to finance the use of the drug, and also impaired driving and motor vehicle accidents.

I wonder if you could comment on what you think the impact would be of legalization of marijuana on the young Canadians that your organization services.

[Rev. Julius Tiangson]

First, going back to what you've requested, in terms of describing our services, we do provide—

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I want to add, tell us if you can, what other resources you and organizations like yours need to continue and enhance those programs.

[Rev. Julius Tiangson]

We run settlement services under Citizenship and Immigration Canada. It was about two and a half years ago that it was considered a pilot. It seems that they're moving towards having that as a mainstay in the area we serve, simply because of some of the results we're seeing in terms of young people and newcomers.

We integrate up to 300 new arrivals to the city of Mississauga every single year, plus another 200. It's about 500 to 600 young people we take in every single year. We integrate them in the types of programming that interest youth, such as urban dance, graphic design, photography, computer, Adobe Photoshop, and those types of programs that attract young people. In fact, you were there when we had our showcase a couple of weeks ago. Over 300 kids from as many as a dozen different nationalities came together and presented their talents, all of which required a little bit of preparation to get there to perform in the showcase. That means they needed to be involved in a number of group activities and were doing something that would positively impact them and also the community.

Let me speak, also, about the other 200 young people we take in who do not fall under the category of newcomers and do not fall under the category of recipients of direct services under the Citizenship and Immigration program we run. These are the alternative measures program participants, many of whom are children of new immigrants. I would say that a great majority of them have been charged because of marijuana. Maybe they were with their friends and they were in a car with a friend who was stopped and pulled over and it so happened that there was a little bit of marijuana in the ashtray. The consequence of that, if there were three or four people inside the car, was that all of them were charged. Or in fact if some of them had already been involved in partaking of marijuana themselves, the consequence of that was that obviously they were caught and charged. They come to us in a variety of ways, but the great majority of them are charged because of marijuana.

From where I stand, in terms of my understanding of the newcomer community that comes to Canada, it is, in fact, the understanding of many of these cultures that marijuana is still an entry drug of choice among young people that could lead to other forms of drugs. There is a cultural understanding of this among the parents. So when their children actually are charged or get involved with this, regardless of whether they are partakers of marijuana or have been caught with their friends inside a car, they are very concerned. Many of them would actually come and register their children who are 15, 16, or 17 years old. Yesterday there was one who was 19 years old. I have to figure out why she still needs to come with her parents. But I guess there's a cultural understanding that these are our kids, these are our children, and if they get involved with the law and they get involved with marijuana, from a cultural understanding, that is an alarming thing, because that would, in their minds, lead them to getting involved with other drugs.

From my own practice and from my own experience, I get a sense that whenever young people try this thing and don't get intervention, it leads to other social causes, leading to anxiety or depression, the moment they get into their young adult years, leading to all forms of wanting acceptance and so on. This leads to all kinds of other social ills as a result of partaking in this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to Monsieur Petit.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Nicaso, I would like to ask you a question. I might get back to some of the things we heard this afternoon around the table. We are studying organized crime. We would like to counter it, maybe eradicate it, but we must find a solution and this is why we are coming to hear from different people in different cities and why we had many witnesses from all over Canada, in Vancouver, in Halifax, etc.

As for me, being a member of the Conservative Party, I will show my colors: we must find a solution and this situation cannot be allowed to persist. Let me explain to you why.

Mr. Nicaso mainly launched a discussion based on some information that we have. In 1924, in Quebec, we established what we called the Régie des alcools in order to control the distribution of alcohol, because a small local mafia was producing and bootlegging moonshine and even claimed that it was good for health. Today, this brings in a billion dollars for the government of Quebec and we have many fatalities on the roads. Some 650 people die because of alcohol and an average 12,000 arrests are made for drunk driving without an accident. This is the first thing. This is what we have always been told in recent years.

In terms of gambling, this is very recent. Quebec took control of gaming. It opened casinos, it sells scratch cards and other gaming tickets. They wanted to get the mafia out of this industry. Now the money is pocketted by the government of Quebec. Before, gamblers who did not pay up were getting killed, today they commit suicide. It is not any better, we have just as many dead except that the killer is not the same.

Then we changed prostitution laws: now only the johns are found guilty. These are our standards. We changed the law and there has been a decision by the Supreme Court. We thought we had solved the problem, but there are still as many prostitutes as before, in Toronto, Montreal or elsewhere. And no one will make be believe that we do not know that there is prostitution. There is lots of it going on every day, at every minute of every hour. Nothing is being done about it since it is impossible to control.

We talk about trafficking in humans. One of you talked about trafficking in humans. We know now that marijuana is no longer important because they now use women. A woman brings in money every day. You do not have to keep buying new merchandise. She works all the time.

I invite you to watch a full report on human trafficking in Montreal that will be broadcast tonight on Radio-Canada. It will help you to better understand what is happening regarding the trafficking of persons.

Also, Mr. Nicaso, I am really worried. You describe the system. Since you have studied this, what are the possible solutions, in your view? What can government do?

We have tried monopolies, we have tried taxes. We have increased taxes on cigarettes, a legal product. But, by increasing taxes, government has increased smuggling.

What should we do? This is why we are having these hearings.

[Antonio Nicaso]

I welcome this question. I have a different approach to the problem. I believe the only way to fight criminal organizations is to take the money out of crime. There is no other alternative, because if you just arrest them and put them in jail, they put on their account the possibility of spending time in jail, but what they do not like is the idea of losing their money.

Many provinces in this country have introduced new legislation using civil remedies. In Italy they are using these laws, but only after a criminal conviction can you start the procedure of law application and seize and confiscate proceeds of crime. In some provinces in Canada we don't need to have a criminal conviction because you can use simple remedies. Ontario passed a law allowing the government to seize and confiscate proceeds of crime.

Also, I think we are notorious around the world because we have a lower risk of prosecution and detention compared to other countries. I think our judicial system is a joke, because the only way to deal with the criminals is to make a deal with the criminals. I mean this in the sense that we are bargaining down sentences in order to avoid the cost of a long trial.

I have some concern with the definition of drug trafficking because the definition of drug trafficking is a consensual crime without visible victims. I disagree. I think when people are selling drugs they are merchants of death. They are selling death and addiction. They are making a lot of money. I spent a month in Colombia and I learned that a kilo of cocaine in Colombia costs $1,500. With one kilo of cocaine you can make 4.5 kilos and then the one gram of cocaine costs $50 to $60. So there is nothing that has a bigger margin of profit than drug trafficking.

So if they are running these types of activities they should pay. They should be convicted and spend time in jail. We should be looking at working camps. We should be looking into real rehabilitation. What we are doing in our Club Med detention centres is we are putting those people together and increasing the synergy among them.

So what we should do is introduce a new strategy to fight the criminal organizations. I hear many things that don't make sense.

If you really want to learn about organized crime, you should invite people who are aware, those in the witness protection program, people who have experience in criminal organizations, who can tell you that drugs are the major source of income. They can tell you so many other things that only those people are able to tell you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you, Mr. Nicaso.

We'll move on to Mr. Norlock for five minutes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. First of all, my apologies, through you to the witnesses, for my outburst there. It was not very professional, and it rarely happened in my previous profession, although in this one sometimes we have a hard time of it.

I'd like to just say at the outset to Mr. Dubro and to those who feel that legalizing marijuana and other drugs would significantly alleviate the problems we have vis-à-vis crime, etc., that you might be shocked--and I know you know my background--if I were to tell you that I also considered that very strongly, both as a police officer and as a legislator, and the alternatives.

In this country we have trouble enough to prosecute impaired driving because of alcohol--and I know there are abilities to prosecute for the use of drugs. There is accepted evidence in the United States. It would never pass in this country. We have too many people who would throw charter arguments. I think you're aware of retinal recognition. It's accepted in the United States, but it will never be accepted in this country. We have a hard time accepting the breathalyzer. That's number one.

So I looked at the legalization of pot as just too many strokes. Here's what I deduce, and I'd like to hear what you think. You say that the costs associated with drug enforcement are very high. I would say that the costs of the legalized drugs of tobacco and alcohol far, far exceed what we're spending on drug enforcement. Take a look at the family. I went to domestic calls caused by alcohol, a legal drug sold by the government, with profits made by the government. The social pain caused by alcohol....

Sir, I try to understand your libertarian viewpoint, but you would be foisting on this society a third legal drug. As a matter of fact, all those other legal drugs...the pain they would cause. If you think you have a law enforcement problem and a problem with impaired driving now, just you wait and see what our roads are like when people high on heroin and all those other legal drugs....

One mother, from the witnesses, said this to us. We should have something very similar to the liquor control board in the old days, when you would go in and check off a bottle of this type of scotch; you could check off a little heroin for Saturday night and a little oxycontin for this night.

I'm going to ask the analysts for the statistics, which I know are available--the cost of tobacco, which is a drug, which causes addiction. People are addicted to tobacco. We know the billions and trillions of dollars it costs the North American health care system. I want to see what statistics are available to have the societal costs and medical costs of tobacco.

Secondly, I know there are statistics on alcohol, on the amount of days lost because of alcoholism and all those other things. When I was a police officer, we had somebody from the Ontario alcohol and addictions group come into our schools. I didn't know who he was. He was free. It was the community policing group I was working with, because that was one of the programs I was bringing into Northumberland--well, it was already there, but we were enhancing it. He went into the high schools and he talked about kids, and he said, “Did you know that with a lot of use of marijuana...”. And this is what the kids in our high schools were interested in. He said, “I know what they're interested in. You don't know. They're interested in being parents later on, and the use of marijuana reduces your sperm count so you may not have the children you want to have.” There has been no study of marijuana anywhere near the depth of studies into tobacco. We know the horror stories that came out of tobacco. So for marijuana, we've just scratched the surface.

Some universities have done studies, but they're very minor. I guess what I am saying is this. Before we leap into “We have a problem with drugs, legalize them”.... We already have two legalized drugs and they're killing us enough. Look at the cancers caused by tobacco, and the heart problems. Look at the pain and suffering throughout.

So just a few quick comments, starting with Madam Beare and working this way, if I have any time....

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

No, you do not, unfortunately.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Maybe somebody else will pick up on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

All right.

Mr. Woodworth.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses, but particularly to Mr. Nicaso. In response to Mr. Petit's comments, I heard what I would describe as a cri de coeur.

In fact, I agreed with several things you said, Mr. Nicaso, most of all that I, too, have heard many things that don't make sense, and with the fact that you have quite adequately pointed out that drug traffickers are merchants of death and addiction. By golly, I'm glad the government is not trying to make money in that business. The fact that the only or best solution is to take the money out of crime is I think the most intelligent thing we've heard this afternoon.

I want to say that we--that is, the members of the committee--are all here because we wish to keep Canadians and their families safe from the violence and exploitation of organized crime. We want them to have happy, fulfilled, love-filled, productive, and safe lives.

So, Mr. Dubro, I would like to ask you whether you have any legislative proposal for us that we can hear from you, other than legalizing the sale of marijuana, steroids, ecstasy, crack cocaine, meth, and heroin.

[James Dubro]

I've mentioned several. Obviously, what Antonio said is quite right: you go after the money. If you can knock out the money of any given organized crime leader or gang, that is excellent. Some of the anti-gang laws go after the money, too, so that's extremely important.

The anti-gang laws are very good.

I wasn't saying, to answer his question earlier--

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Can you answer my question instead?

[James Dubro]

Oh, okay, but it's part of your question; that is to say, because marijuana is illegal, it doesn't mean that it isn't readily available to everyone in high school and everyone else in our society.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Sorry, but my question was whether you have any legislative proposal other than the legalization of these drugs.

[James Dubro]

I don't, because I actually said that I don't think we need more laws.

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Then you've answered my question.

[James Dubro]

We have a lot of things out there that are not being used--

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I have one or two other questions. I'm sorry to be so brusque, but in the five minutes I have, if I'm not brusque I get nowhere.

In regard to my next question, I have had some trouble, Mr. Dubro, following your logic. I did not follow your logic in saying that we should get the government involved in selling drugs so we could use the money to teach children not to use drugs. Another area where I had trouble following your logic was where you said that obviously “we can never eliminate organized crime...we can only contain it and keep it on the ropes”. I would like to know how you feel that legalizing the major fund-raising activity of organized crime is going to keep them on the ropes.

[James Dubro]

The logic is strange, but it's used all the time. The government runs a lot of gambling, yet spends a lot of money on anti-gambling campaigns, which are not all that effective, I have to admit. The government is very involved in alcohol and spends some money on campaigns against alcohol. I would think, with the money coming in from pot alone, just the stuff that's smoked now.... I don't think there'd be the increase that someone suggested simply because it's made legal. I think you would use that for very effective campaigns against--

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

How would this put organized crime on the ropes? We've already spoken about the fact that they're still involved in gambling and they're still involved in other areas where we've legalized things. How is legalizing their main source of income going to put organized crime on the ropes?