Justice Committee on March 29th, 2010

[Norma Chamut]

If a school approached them or anyone who was not police or court-related, I think they would be more open to looking at it rather than going to any kind of court or police, because then there's that label. Kids are really big on labels, on their pants or wherever. Labels are a symbol of their persona or what they are. So if kids go through an educational program, it's very different from a police-funded program to these kids.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Would you agree with that, Ms. Aulakh, in terms of a more research-oriented program?

[Prof. Harpreet Aulakh]

Yes, I agree with Norma. I met a couple of people like her in Edmonton who had been with Hells Angels and working on the streets with Lebanese gangs. Those girls had at one time gotten out of the gangs, and one thing they said was that it had been long enough that they really wanted to get out. So an individual approach to this is one thing. The girls and young people I talk to say the individual motivation has to be there. I agree that it's nothing to do with the police.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

On the prevention side, perhaps Mr. Accord could help here. If you were trying to help young people before they even got involved with organized crime, you are saying that schools would be the better way to start.

[Norma Chamut]

The entry age is usually 12 or 13.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Yes, that supports everything that we've heard this morning about programs at schools.

Would you agree, Mr. Accord, that it would help in your community to take away the glamour or the probability that gang life is going to help you in any way?

[Mahamad Accord]

Yes, we are focusing mainly on the preventive side. For us in Alberta the challenge is that we are dealing with an issue that has been growing over the years that we have been here.

When we came here, we initially settled and then when we got that piece of paper saying that we were citizens, we were supposed to move beyond that to integration. That isn't happening. What is happening is that our families are usually quite large, so there are a lot of young people who have nothing to do. There is nothing else for them, because there is nothing in their community and nobody outside waiting for them other than the criminals. So for us, when we have experienced that, we have look backed and asked what happened.

We ask ourselves how we can prevent...not prevent these newcomers from coming. Again, the community is working on the preventive side, but at the same time there are a lot of fish in the pond, and getting them out of that pond is more difficult than we thought. We don't even know how to get them out. That is the reality.

We keep finding that one of them gets killed because of that. Some of them try to get out. We knew two of them who tried to get away but they became victims because they knew too much and the others didn't want them to get away. We knew two of them who had Greyhound tickets and wanted to go back to their families, but they ended up dead.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Madam Guay.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Ms. Chamut, at what age were you recruited?

[Norma Chamut]

I was 12 years old when I started.... See, I wasn't recruited at 12; I started with a motorcycle club at 15 and a half.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Once you were part of the gang, were you forced to recruit other girls?

[Norma Chamut]

Yes, that was your job. When you were with them, when you worked on the corner, you found other girls to be out there with you, yes.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Did they force you to sell drugs and take drugs? That becomes a vicious circle.

[Norma Chamut]

They really don't want you doing drugs--at all. They want you clear.

It's really hard to separate the two: when you're out selling your body, it's really hard to do it straight. So I used to sneak drugs and get high, but I used needles. When you're with a motorcycle club, you are not allowed to use needles. They basically don't want you doing any drugs.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You got out of that environment and I congratulate you on that. Is there still some danger for you? Do you feel that you're in danger?

[Norma Chamut]

Yes, I feel very safe. I'm not scared.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You feel safe. I imagine you have been helped by some organizations, like Ms. Quinn's.

[Norma Chamut]

Actually, I went to Mrs. Quinn's association to help others. I'm a very strong, bullheaded woman, and I'm not scared. I have never really been scared of men. There were nine kids in my family. I'm very different from a lot of other women and I understand that, so now my strengths are to go and help them out.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

That's great; you are doing good work. Keep at it. I hope you save many young women and young men, too. After all, it's not just girls; there are boys in that situation, too.

[Norma Chamut]

Yes, thank you very much.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

You're welcome.

Mr. Accord, how many Somalis are there in Alberta, in Edmonton, and in the general area?

[Mahamad Accord]

In Alberta, we estimate there are between 30,000 and 35,000 Somalis in Alberta, but we mainly live in the two big cities, Edmonton and Calgary. We also have a sizeable number of people working up north in Fort McMurray.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

I listened to your presentation earlier. It would seem that your community is a victim of considerable racism. That is what I understood from your remarks. I don't understand why.

Is it because people think some people in your community are criminals or belong to gangs? You didn't give much of an explanation of that.

[Mahamad Accord]

Actually, we cannot say that our young men are dying because of racism, but when it comes to addressing the underlying issue, we sense that the characterization of the issue by calling them Somalis becomes an issue of racialization for them, because it takes away their worth in this country. When they are called Somalis, it means that the problem is no longer Canadian, but a Somali problem. The fact is that the majority of these young men have been born here or came here when young.

So when it comes to the urgency of addressing the issue by law enforcement or government, because the headlines say they are Somalis, the problem is compounded. So it's not because we're experiencing racism. Of course, some people in the community will say it's different, but for me, the people in leadership see that mischaracterization and misdiagnosis of the issue is what's making them feel racialized, and not racism.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Ms. Aulakh, you are a university professor and you are a witness to all that. I would like to hear your opinion. What can be done to help them? It is not obvious. In Toronto we heard there were gangs. What can be done so that young Somalis will not get into that situation? We were told that in Toronto there were many street gangs, ethnic gangs. We have to admit it; some gangs come from Asia and other countries.

Is that a factor here? What can be done to improve their lives and help them to change this perception?