Justice Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Insp Robert Bazin]

I can speak briefly about the guns.

In my work along the border we do see a lot of guns moving across the border. We have a lot of intelligence on guns moving across the border. A lot of it...for lack of a better word, the B.C. bud, or the marijuana, goes south, and the guns come north. In some of the vast areas where we work, it's very easy to get guns across. It's not difficult at all, and there are various methods. That's where we're seeing those more expensive semi-automatic pistols and the like; for the most part, they're coming from the U.S.

In terms of laws, I think we have some pretty good laws on the books. I think we should maybe expand a little bit in terms of allowing absolutely no latitude for sentencing if you're a known gang member and you're caught carrying a concealed pistol. It should be crystal clear.

I suppose the question then will be how to prove he's a gang member. That's where the listing and all the rest of it come in, which I'm sure you've heard about, but if we can get to the point that if you're a gang member and you're carrying a pistol for intimidation.... As Chief Weighill rightly points out, it's for intimidation. They pull them out and they point them in people's faces. They probably don't intend on using them, but they will if they have to, so it goes from there. That would be my take on it.

I don't know, John, if you want to add something--

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Madam Guay for five minutes.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

What is happening here is very interesting because we have seen that it is very different in Edmonton. It is also different in Toronto. Here, you have specific problems because of a significant aboriginal population.

This morning, we heard a number of ladies — that was surprising, by the way, because there was no man in that panel of witnesses — who work in various organizations to help young inmates. We heard of grandmothers trying to help them.

I would like to know if you work in cooperation with them and their organizations? Are there links between them and the various penitentiary and police institutions of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Saskatoon? I would like a short answer, please.

Anyone of you can answer, but briefly, please, because I only have five minutes.

[Insp Jim Poole]

On the Winnipeg front, our GRASP initiative with the province has the opportunity to make all of those referrals to the different groups. They're the ones more in tune with the preventative measures that we have available out there, and we are--

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Do you work with those persons?

[Insp Jim Poole]

Our people in probations do, yes.

[Insp John Ferguson]

We have very strong cooperation and good relationships with child and family services and probation in this province as well. We have an RCMP member who is with the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs and with the Manitoba Métis Federation and is working with them.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Bonnefoy.

[Robert Bonnefoy]

We also put a major emphasis on our engagement with our partnerships. We partner with the community parole offices and with external organizations such as the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, various aboriginal organizations, and the John Howard Society. We partner very strongly with our local police. We try to have a continuum of care from the institution out to the community.

[Chief Clive Weighill]

Yes, we do also. I have just one comment, which is that we find that they're very good organizations to work with because they're close to the people they work with. As a result, there's trust in those organizations from the people they work with, so it's very important for us to partner with those CBOs.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

That is exactly what we were told this morning.

Mr. Weighill, you were saying earlier — and I was pleased to hear it — that the problem will not be solved by more punitive legislation, more jails and more youth in jail. You said we should rather look at the root causes of the problem.

Am I to understand that this view is shared by all of you at the table? We know that amendments to the Young Offenders Act will soon be tabled in the House of Commons because the government wants to establish 10-year minimum sentences for young criminals. What do you think of this proposal?

[Insp Nick Leone]

Ultimately, we can't lose sight of the victims. If a particular incident or crime suits a 10-year sentence, or a mandatory minimum, for a youth, then I think we have to realize that's an absolute possibility.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

That is already in the legislation. Should we be more punitive, with longer sentences? Under the Act, judges already have the option to impose 10-year sentences. With the amendments, this would not be an option, it would be compulsory.

[Cst Nick Leone]

I didn't think that mandatory minimums were at that point of 10 years, unless I didn't understand the question.

[Monique Guay, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

All right, thank you.

[Insp Jim Poole]

I'm not totally up on all the different changes that are being proposed in amendments to the Youth Criminal Justice Act, so I wouldn't be able to comment.

[Chief Clive Weighill]

I think, in certain situations, we need long terms, and I think that's up to the judges to make those decisions. Probably there's a backlash from the public because they don't think the judges are doing that, but the legislation, for the most part, is there. The judges do have the authority to do something if they so wish.

[Insp Robert Bazin]

I can't really speak to the Youth Criminal Justice Act. I'm not totally up on it.

I don't know if John wants to comment.

[Insp John Ferguson]

No, unfortunately, I'm not that versed in the Young Offenders Act either.

However, speaking generally of mandatory sentences, there has to be that balance. If I could just comment very quickly on the example Inspector Bazin gave in his opening remarks of a large marijuana grow op that was roughly $39 million in value, 31 people were arrested in that operation. All of those people were immigrants, some in the country illegally and some not. But at the end of the day, they were all very desperate people just trying to do well for their families.

Now, would it have been fair to give them a minimum sentence for their involvement? Well, I think my compassionate side would say probably not. For the person organizing it, should there have been a minimum sentence? Absolutely. So there's that balance that we must find.

[Chief Clive Weighill]

There's one amendment I would like to comment about, that of releasing the names of youth. I'm fully supportive of that. If you have a youth of 14, 15, 16, 17 years of age who is intimidating people and causing chaos in the community, I cannot find a good, solid reason why we can't release that youth's name.

If we're looking for them, we need the...[Inaudible--Editor]...arrest them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Chief, do you also support making the protection of the public a primary purpose of the act?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Right.

We'll move on to Mr. Dechert, for five minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your comments and information this afternoon.

We've spoken about witness intimidation a number of times. If you had been here this morning, you would have heard a rather heart-wrenching story from Mr. Floyd Wiebe, whose son, T.J. Wiebe, was murdered here in Winnipeg some years ago. One of the things that struck me about what he said was that the mastermind criminal who convinced the other three to murder his son was acquitted because the witnesses were intimidated and wouldn't testify or give the testimony necessary to convict that individual.

You mentioned, Chief Weighill, your concerns about witnesses being intimidated. My question to you is this: what can we do about that? What changes to the law or changes to witness protection can we make to solve that problem so that more witnesses will be prepared to come forward and give the testimony necessary to convict some of these very dangerous criminals?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

In my personal opinion, that has to be one of the strictest legislative angles in our criminal justice system, because it's the cornerstone. If you have people who are intimidated and too scared to come forward, our whole criminal justice system is down the drain. Anyone who is tampering with the system, intimidating witnesses, threatening witnesses has to be dealt with to the full extent of the law.