Justice Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Stephen Woodworth, Conservative, Kitchener Centre, ON]

That will do it for me.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll go on to Mr. Petit for five minutes.

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

During two or three days, and previously in other cities, we have looked at the issue of organized crime. Our government is going to table several pieces of legislation. The words we hear all the time are intelligence and information. Information is useful for rehabilitation but also for deterrence, because we need to know who we are dealing with.

We have heard representatives of various law enforcement organizations such as the police, the border agency, etc. As far as a young offenders are concerned, information is difficult to obtain. As a lawyer, I know how difficult it is. I wonder how you can succeed because, in many cases, when a young person receives an alternative sentence, you do not have the information you need to deal with him. If he is recorded for the first time in the system, he is considered a first offender. If the judge wants to have specific information about him, he cannot get it. If he does not have it, you do not either. So, you do not know how that young person is going to react and even if he is a member of organized crime or not.

There is also much information that we do not have. This morning, for instance, several aboriginal witnesses referred to the damage caused to their communities by residential schools. We know that there have been many problems with pedophiles in the residential schools but that does not appear in official statistics. Even I was not aware of it. I am discovering this little by little.

So, I need to know what you know and how I can help you or how you can help us because we do not have enough information. You work on the ground. You work hard and I encourage you to continue. However, there is a lack of information. I need information. How does organized crime control young people? We were even told that, in some cases, disclosing information helps organized crime because they can then exact revenge on those who betrayed them. So, there is a problem with disclosure of evidence. In many cases, it is dangerous.

Do you have any suggestions for us? We need you because you are our eyes on the ground, whether it be in institutions, in the RCMP or in municipalities. We need information because information relating to crimes — not to people... Improvement is not possible because you do not have information and neither do I.

My question is for Mr. Ferguson and for the gentleman from Winnipeg. What would you suggest we do?

[Insp John Ferguson]

I'm sorry, I'm not quite clear on specifically what it is you're asking. There was quite a bit of information in your intervention.

I'll just talk. If I'm off-topic, please let me know.

Chief Weighill, especially, and Inspector Poole both talked about, in their opening remarks, social impacts, and about trying to find out exactly what some of the social causes are. When you ask what the hold of organized crime groups is on young people, it's basically that they're offering them a better life than they perceive themselves as having, either through giving them things or giving them a sense of importance or a sense of belonging.

In that respect, it's incumbent upon us to develop the programs that the chief is talking about, to work with community groups to get these youth more interested in just getting on with their lives, getting straight in their lives, instead of being influenced by their outside groups.

Is that part of what you were looking for?

[Daniel Petit, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Ferguson, statistics indicate that the number of murders has decreased in Canada. However, about 500 aboriginal persons are missing. We do not know what to do about them. Should we consider them as missing women or as murdered women? We do not know. However, those 500 persons exist but we do not know... They have not been found. We do not know if they are just missing or have been murdered. What do you see on the ground? What would you suggest?

[Insp John Ferguson]

Well, in this province we have developed a missing and murdered women's task force in cooperation with the Winnipeg Police Service. As you correctly pointed out, we don't know what has happened with these missing women. The first step is to try to determine that.

I'm not sure, Constable Leone, whether you may have some comment on this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

We're out of time for that question, unfortunately.

We'll have Mr. Rathgeber for one last question, for five minutes.

You can certainly give Mr. Leone time, if you wish, to answer the question.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for your appearance this afternoon and for the good work you do in keeping Canadians safe.

I have a couple of specific questions for the members of the two police services.

First of all, Inspector Poole, you appeared before our committee in Ottawa last fall.

[Insp Jim Poole]

Yes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Was that specifically on Bill C-26, the trafficking in property crime bill?

[Insp Jim Poole]

Yes. It was with regard to the violent aspects of stolen auto offences here in Winnipeg.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I don't remember if I asked you then, but do you know what the estimated value is of stolen vehicles in this city? I understand it's quite a problem in Winnipeg.

[Insp Jim Poole]

It spiked in 2006, and that's when WATSS, the Winnipeg auto theft strategy, was put in place jointly with the province. Now our successes are there, to the point where the numbers are way down. They've gone from 40 stolen cars in 2006 to now single digits, sometimes zero, sometimes four, a day, at times.

Again, I'm not about to declare a victory, because even one is a threat.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Do you support the reintroduction of the bill—I think it was Bill C-26—that made it an offence to alter a VIN number and provided for a mandatory jail sentence upon a third conviction?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It died at prorogation.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

My question, Mr. Comartin, was whether he supported the reintroduction of the bill.

[Insp Jim Poole]

I'm not up on the reintroduction at this point. I'd like more time to comment on something like that. At the time, Winnipeg was most concerned about the violent aspects, but it would certainly go along with other offences.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Chief Weighill, your province, as I understand it, introduced some fairly innovative legislation with respect to the banishment of gang members wearing colours. Am I correct?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

We did, but it didn't meet the lawful challenge, and it was repealed.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Was it repealed or was it struck down by the courts?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

I'm sorry; it was struck down by the courts. They're rewriting it right now.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

In the very limited time that the bill was in force and in effect in the province of Saskatchewan, did it, in your view, have some benefit in preventing members from joining gangs or somehow impeding their activity?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

The strongest reason that we liked it was that it prevented a lot of intimidation. If you came into the bar wearing Hells Angels colours, the bar owner had to make you take them off and leave. Now if you come to the bar, because it has been struck down it puts the bar owner in a tough spot. It looks as if he's fighting the Hells Angels by himself if he asks them to take their colours off, since it's no longer against the law.

Before, the bar owner didn't have to say to them, “Take your colours off, I don't want you to have them in here.” By law they had to take them off. So it kind of got the bar owners off the hook. Now they're intimidated. Now the Hells Angels can walk in all they want with their colours on, and nobody is going to say anything, because it's not against the law. Now they're sitting in the bars and intimidating people.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

On the topic of intimidation, does Saskatchewan offer witness protection for individuals prior to enduring trial, similar to that in the legislation that was passed by Alberta recently?

[Chief Clive Weighill]

Yes, we just had legislation in the last year, and it helps specifically to pay the police agencies for the costs we were incurring for witness protection. We're not talking about occasions when you go away and get a new identity—the federal government still takes care of that—but the province does give some stopgap funding for the municipal agencies to take care of this.