Justice Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

That's it.

[Chief Clive Weighill]

I would agree that we need some legislative change. I'm certainly not a guy who is soft on crime, but when you talk about the Youth Criminal Justice Act, I find that one of its pitfalls is that....

You know, it allows the police to use other methods rather than putting people into the criminal justice system. We can divert youth on minor offences, and when people are getting involved with gangs, they are starting out with minor offences. The problem with the Youth Criminal Justice Act is that there is no infrastructure. It's nice to say that the police can give official warnings, and we work with that, to start, when it is a minor offence. But as their crimes increase, where do we put these youth? Show me where there are addictions centres for the youth who need help. Show me where the programming is for the youth who need help.

It's fine to write a Youth Criminal Justice Act that allows the police to divert, but we have nothing to divert them to. So once again, we push our youth back into the criminal justice system. Then they are sent to the youth detention centres, where they come out better criminals than when they went in.

I know I sound like I'm soft, and almost academic and theoretical, but I truly believe that if we don't get to the beginning of this, legislation is not going to end it, in my humble opinion. As I said earlier, you can lock people up for as long as you want. You can threaten people if you want. But if they are living in a terrible situation to start with, and if we have no mechanisms to deal with youth without having to shove them into the criminal justice system, then this is the outcome we're going to get time and time again, in my humble opinion.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

There are about two minutes left, so a minute each from maybe RCMP and Winnipeg.

[Insp John Ferguson]

I agree completely with Chief Weighill. The key is to have a strong enforcement strategy, but equally you have to have a strong prevention strategy as well.

You have to develop and look at programs that are going to be meaningful. I have had the ability or the luxury to be involved in a number of youth justice committees just policing here in Manitoba. Unfortunately, if it were not for the police in that community, those committees typically would not get off the ground. You know, we do recognize that if we can solve the problem at the front end it will make our job a lot easier at the back end. I don't think any one of us here would disagree that prevention is key to this.

I don't know if that answered your question. I've just more or less given a few comments.

[Brian Murphy, Liberal, Moncton—Riverview—Dieppe, NB]

In Winnipeg and specifically on the grey area, for the people in the middle between pawns and kingpins, what do we do?

[Insp Jim Poole]

I went to Regina last week, actually, and took part in a very small conference put on by the Regina anti-gang strategy, or RAGS, which is funded by the youth criminal justice fund. They are a self-referral group. People who are trying to get out of the gangs have to go to them. From speaking with some of those people, I've learned that they see the groups that we have to be looking at as the kids who are in that 10-year-old range right now.

I know I'm not really speaking specifically to the issue that you had between the kingpins and the younger ones doing the dirty work, as it were. Kids who are at grade 10 are the ones we have to target right now to try to keep them from falling into this path. I was quite enlightened by the Regina anti-gang strategy, having just a brief look at it over a couple of days. It's a piece that I could see potentially working here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move on to Ms. Mourani, seven minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here today.

My questions are for the representatives of the Correctional Service of Canada. Since I do not have too much time, I would appreciate brief answers to my questions.

I understand that the aboriginal gang Native Syndicate was created at the Stony Mountain institution. Is that true?

[Robert Bonnefoy]

I believe that's the case, yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I have been told also that this gang has expanded not only across Manitoba but also in Ontario, in Saskatchewan and a little bit in Alberta. This would have been the result not only of the migration of its members but also of inmates being transferred by the Correctional Service in order to manage its population in case of violence.

First, I would like to know if there are other prison gangs, as they are called, that is to say gangs that were created in prison. Who are their members? What do you do to solve this problem? Why do you continue transferring inmates and gang members to other provinces and cities?

[Robert Bonnefoy]

I'll try to address all your questions.

With regard to what gangs originated in Manitoba and how they spread, that's something off the top of my head I can't answer, but we can get you that technical data at our earliest opportunity.

In terms of how do we solve the problem of aboriginal and street gangs, we use intelligence-led risk management. We try to gather information to work with our partners to share information within the service, give our staff the tools necessary to recognize gang behaviour, and we basically put our energy into trying to disaffiliate. We utilize our risk management strategy information to try to disaffiliate gang members. We've improved our programming and our interventions, and we have put a lot of energy and effort into that.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Several gangs have spread out across Canada because of inmates being transferred. Another example is Indian Posse. Why do you continue this practice?

In Quebec, we have gang members originating from the Prairies and elsewhere and they contaminate other provinces. Why do you continue transferring members of street gangs who are sometimes well known? Is it because you're unable to manage that situation in your institutions? Why have you not developed another strategy?

[Robert Bonnefoy]

Part of what we do--I'm a warden of a medium-security facility--is that as we gather information.... All criminal organizations have a risk inherent in our facilities. We assess risk. When some of the offenders are assessed as maximum security, they will be transferred to a penitentiary suited to managing their risk. That is the reason for some of the transfers.

Some of the other transfers we do are for programming purposes. A lot of the time people will try to drop their colours, or disaffiliate from a gang. We will try to do that locally, but a lot of times we will transfer an offender to another institution to give him a start so that he can break away safely from his gang.

Those are a couple of the ways gang members can spread throughout the penitentiary system.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

If I am not mistaken, when an inmate is classified as maximum security in Manitoba, he will be transferred to a maximum security institution. However, why would he be transferred to Quebec or elsewhere? Do you not have any maximum-security institution in Manitoba? Is that the explanation?

[Robert Bonnefoy]

Yes, sometimes we will transfer an offender to the SHU, the special handling unit, because his risk can't be managed safely or effectively in a maximum security unit. That's one of the reasons we may transfer an individual from Manitoba to Quebec.

Does that answer your question?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So, there is no maximum security institution in Manitoba? Is that correct?

[Robert Bonnefoy]

No, we do not have a maximum security facility in Manitoba.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So, that is the issue. Inmates sometimes have to be transferred to other provinces because there is no maximum security institution in your own province of Manitoba?

[Robert Bonnefoy]

In addition to that....

Go ahead, Tim.

[Tim Van der Hoek, Senior Project Manager, Preventive Security and Intelligence, National Headquarters, Correctional Service Canada]

To answer Ms. Mourani's question, that's correct.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I have been told that, in order to be able to set up a prison gang, the population has to be somewhat concentrated. For example, in order to set up an aboriginal gang, there has to be a concentrated aboriginal population. In other words, there has to be in the institution a significant number of potential members to be recruited and they have to be in close proximity to one another.

Is it possible that aboriginal overcrowding in federal institutions has contributed to the creation of those prison gangs?

[Robert Bonnefoy]

I guess our gang populations mirror many of the gang populations in the community. So if we have a lot of street gang members of various ethnic origins in the community, offenders are often already affiliated with a gang prior to their incarceration. So we will try to manage those groups.

Something else that is related to your question of why we would move individuals around is the option of segregation, which is an extreme option for us. When we have an inmate who's in segregation, we try to devise a plan to return him to the general prison population, so he can participate in rehabilitative functions such as programming and employment. That's another reason we will move offenders around to various penitentiaries.

[The Chair, Conservative, Ed Fast]

Thank you.

We'll move over to Mr. Comartin for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you for being here.

Inspector Ferguson, in that incident you described of a gang penetrating an NGO, was that a street gang?

[Insp John Ferguson]

Yes, it was, sir.