Evidence of meeting #47 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was need.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Françoise Boivin
Please do.
In this case, the question that arises is the following:That the decision of the chair be sustained.
We will hold a recorded division.
(Ruling of the chair overturned: yeas 6; nays 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We will therefore continue the meeting in camera.
Mr. Coderre, do you wish to rise on a point of order?
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
The fact that the ruling has been overturned does not mean we should continue in camera. The overturned ruling means the amendment was deemed out of order. In this case, we have to discuss the amendment, and that's what I would like to do.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Françoise Boivin
You are right. The vote was on the admissibility of the amendment, which sought to add to your motion the suggestion that we go in camera.
So let's move on to the discussion. Mr. Coderre, go ahead.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Madam Chair, I think our colleagues from across the table are very undemocratic. We have once again heard the broken record from the Prime Minister's Office. I don't see what they have to hide or what they're afraid of.
This amendment shows us that the government has been playing owner and preventing democracy from unfolding. A committee is sovereign and free in its parliamentary activities. The committee decides what it wants to discuss and how, and that is why we can propose this amendment and overturn your ruling.
Since we have begun the discussion, I will say that I am completely opposed to this amendment. Opinions on this have been issued by the government and by the two opposition parties. I don't see what else the Conservatives have to hide. They think that democracy is practised in camera. I am completely opposed to this amendment.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
Monsieur Coderre may or may not be aware of this, but actually this committee—
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
I'm talking about committee business and you do not sit on this committee normally, sir.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
I am talking about this committee's business.
Conservative
Kerry-Lynne Findlay Conservative Delta—Richmond East, BC
Through the chair, I would say that this committee actually has the lowest number of times of going in camera of any standing committee in this Parliament.
We have made a motion. It has nothing to do with democracy. As I said earlier, in fact, we agree with the spirit and the idea of discussing division 9 of part 4. It's simply the timing. Our point of view is that this bill should be allowed to have second reading in the House. Then we agree that we will set the appropriate time, as we do in committee, as to when we can deal with it. I'm sure we'll do that in a timely way, and cooperatively, as we always do in this committee. Then we will move forward to discuss it at this committee.
Raymond Côté NDP Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I dislike the fact that we were unable to resolve this issue more quickly and thus avoid wasting our witnesses' time. That's very disrespectful. Unfortunately, they will have to leave the room, and that will add to the delay.
That's all.
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I was just going to say that the parliamentary secretary has been very clear that she's open to this particular amendment, but just not now, and that's why she wants to go in camera. As far as democracy goes, I think democracy just had its way. If we put this amendment to a vote, it's going to have its way and then we can deal with the amendment and it can have its way with democracy as well. Democracy is here, and it's alive and well.
The reality is Mr. Coderre is not a normal member of the committee. This is the first time—
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
Normal? What do you mean by “normal”? I've been here for 15 years. I'm a member of the Privy Council. I've been a minister of the crown. I don't accept that kind of statement. Retract it.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Françoise Boivin
Can you explain your word “normal” to settle the point of order here?
Conservative
Brian Jean Conservative Fort McMurray—Athabasca, AB
I will. He said all that's necessary as far as my description of that particular individual is concerned. He's not a regular committee member. I don't think he's been on this committee since I've been here, which is only 15 months. Maybe he has been, but I have not noticed. The reality is, we have a regular committee, a normal standing committee, which has regular members on it who are normally on this committee.
Mr. Coderre has brought forth a motion that's not, in my opinion, in good faith. We have a situation here where democracy wants to speak, where witnesses want to come forward. We already mentioned that we are in full favour of the particular motion that Mr. Coderre has brought forward, just not the timing of it. That's why we want to deal with it in camera, so we can come up with a solution, but that's not possible, so now we have to play hard ball. Democracy will have its way.
NDP
Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON
I'd say that because we didn't go in camera immediately and we did have representations from Ms. Findlay, we already know the positions. Therefore, I would suggest it is a waste of time to go in camera now. If everybody could just be a bit pragmatic here, we've all had enough and we don't need to go in camera. We can vote and we can be respectful of our witnesses.
Liberal
Denis Coderre Liberal Bourassa, QC
I entirely agree with my colleague. I don't know why the conservatives are afraid of voting. All they have to do is reject my motion. I have been a member of Parliament for 15 years, and my idea of democracy consists in respecting members and procedures.
I spent 12 months on this committee in the past. The fact that we are replacing someone doesn't mean we are not familiar with the work.
I support what my colleague Craig Scott said. We have expressed our opinion, and they have expressed theirs. Let's go ahead with the vote, so that we can hear from witnesses. They won't even need to leave the room, Madam Chair.