Justice Committee on March 20th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to call this meeting to order. We're the Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights. This is meeting number 65. It's a televised meeting. Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), we are on the main estimates 2013-14. These are votes which we're able to vote on at the end of today's meeting, if we have time: votes 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35 and 50 under Justice, referred to this committee on Monday, February 25.

For the first hour, from 3:30 to 4:30, we have Minister Nicholson here to talk to us about the main estimates. He is joined by witnesses from the Department of Justice in the finance area. Then those witnesses from Justice will continue with us from 4:30 to 5:15. I remind members that bells will be going at 5:15. We will have a marathon voting session in the House of Commons this evening.

With that, Minister, the floor is yours.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm pleased to appear before the members of the committee to answer questions regarding the main estimates in areas that fall under my jurisdiction as Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada. I'm pleased as well to be joined today by William Pentney, the deputy minister and deputy attorney general, as well as Daniel Schnob, the chief financial officer.

Mr. Chairman, the Department of Justice has the responsibility of supporting the finest justice system in the world and making it as fair and accessible and efficient as possible.

Part of the support provided to the justice system consists in restoring Canadians' confidence in that system. That is a high priority for our government.

We thank the Department of Justice for assisting our government in holding criminals accountable and putting victims first, protecting our children, and making Canada's justice system more efficient.

Our government began by establishing tougher penalties for a range of crimes related to everything from white-collar crime and identity theft to street racing, auto theft, and elder abuse. We also pass laws that acknowledge the rights of victims and law-abiding Canadians.

The Tackling Violent Crime Act toughened the sentences for criminals who use guns, raised the age of protection, and made it easier to keep dangerous, violent, and repeat offenders behind bars.

The Truth in Sentencing Act eliminated the practice of double-time reductions in the sentence of criminals for time served before their trial, except in exceptional circumstances.

The Safe Streets and Communities Act eliminated house arrest for serious and violent crimes, toughened sentences for drug dealers, and increased penalties for criminals who commit sexual offences against children. This legislation also addressed the issue of violent young offenders and eliminated pardons for serious crimes like sexual offences against children.

Most recently, the Citizen's Arrest and Self-defence Act came into force on March 11, 2013. This legislation clarifies the rules related to citizen's arrest, defence of property and persons, and expands the existing power to make a citizen's arrest in circumstances when it is not feasible for a police officer to make the arrest.

Our government's reforms have also helped the victims to play a more significant role in our criminal justice system through enhanced funding of the federal victims strategy, among other things.

Perhaps no better project illustrates the value of the victims strategy than the child advocacy centres initiative. So far, child advocacy centres have been funded in 17 cities or municipalities across Canada, and another four projects are currently in various stages of development.

At each centre, a team of professionals helps young victims and witnesses and their families to cope with the trauma they've experienced and to navigate the criminal justice system and ultimately build the public's faith in the system.

Mr. Chair, we have made significant progress in increasing Canadians' confidence in our justice system, but there is still much more work to be done.

As the Prime Minister said recently:

Despite years of unceasing effort, there remain many areas requiring determined action in our criminal justice system.... When it comes to keeping our streets and communities safe, we will not rest, for there is much more to be done.

As we implement the next phase of our plan for safe streets and communities, we will continue to focus on tackling crime, victims' rights, and a fair and efficient justice system. We will make additional progress in these three areas.

First, we will take further steps to tackle crime by holding violent criminals accountable, particularly those who commit sexual offences against children. Accordingly, we will be introducing comprehensive legislation later this year to crack down on criminals who commit sexual offences against children and those who continue to violate their conditions while at large.

Second, we plan to further enhance the rights of victims of crime. We intend to bring forward legislation to implement a victims' bill of rights, which will entrench victims' rights in a single law at the federal level.

The third key is ensuring the efficiency of our justice system, for example, by aiming to make the bail and extradition regimes more effective and efficient. As we move forward, our government will build on our successes to make additional progress in ensuring that Canadians have safe streets and communities in which to live.

To conclude, Mr. Chairman, I would like to express my thanks and appreciation to you and to your committee members for the important work that you do. The funding that the Department of Justice has received has brought results for Canadians, and I will continue to do my utmost to ensure that these funds will continue to be spent wisely as we continue with our plan for safe streets and communities, and in creating a fair, relevant, accessible justice system that reflects Canadian values.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister, for that opening statement.

Now we'll go to questions. Our first questioner is from the New Democratic Party, Madame Boivin.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for joining us.

For those main estimates, on the eve of the budget, are you reasonably confident that this is basically going to be what we'll see in the budget, or are we doing all this for absolutely nothing?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

All the work that you do at this committee, Madame Boivin, is important, and it all contributes to the best interests of Parliament and of Canada.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

So you don't expect any surprises.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, I'm not the finance minister. I always say to people on the eve of the budget to be patient. It's going to be brought down tomorrow at four o'clock, as you know, but I can tell you just from experience, I've been very pleased with the budgets that have been tabled by this finance minister and very appreciative of the project. So if the past is any guide to the future, again I think we'll all be very, very pleased.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

I'm a bit surprised to hear you're happy with that budget. If I were Minister of Justice, with everything that you stated, with all the bills that are in front of Parliament, I'd be a bit scared. What I see in Justice is a decline in your budget. In certain aspects it's going to hurt. I'm not too sure it's going to be positive. You're a good cheerleader for the government; I'll give you points for that.

My question is as such. I'll just take, for example,

the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Recently, I was reading the office's 2012-13 Report on Plans and Priorities. I expect 2013-2014 to be fairly similar.

In 2011-2012, the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions had $141.5 million. In 2012-2013—the expiring fiscal year—expenditures totaled $156.3 million, which included the additional budgets allocated during the year. For 2013-2014, $144.2 million is projected. That is almost equivalent to the actual expenditures from 2012-2013.

However, the Director of Public Prosecutions says that his organization's workload is increasing by roughly 2.5% a year. His office receives a huge number of requests for the services of lawyers who prosecute criminal cases throughout the country and crown prosecutors who enforce the vast majority of federal laws. You can't tell us that you are happy to see the budget reduced to this level or—after telling us about the great measures the government is implementing in the area of youth criminal justice—to see that the government is also cutting over $30 million from the grant budget for young offenders programs. It seems to me that the government is contradicting itself.

You may be happy with the bills you are introducing, but when it comes to walking the talk, I am not sure your budget is in line with your government's ambitions in terms of law and order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Minister, if you'd like to respond.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

You've got five questions there.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you very much, again.

I'm pleased. I think I'm picking up that you agree and support expenditures in the area of public prosecution and support expenditures in the area of justice.

The main estimates that you have before you indicate that the estimate is $162 million. Again, we have been supportive of the public prosecution office. In fact, it was this government that set it up, Mr. Chairman.

Yes, we are very careful with the expenditure of money, but we have made a major commitment to the Director of Public Prosecutions.

As I indicated to you, we in fact set up the office. I'd ask you to go through the details of this and we'll all be awaiting the results of the budget tomorrow.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Basically, their budget is going down and they're saying the number of files they have to address are going up steadily with all the new infractions. They even mention it in their 2012-13 report. They reference Bill C-10 which they will have to deal with, which will come into full force, or is already in full force.

I think we'll see you coming back often for supplementary budgets. I'm wondering if it's a good way to budget, by presenting something and then coming back constantly to get a hike, because these guys will need to be able to perform if you want to complete your agenda.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I'm glad that the honourable member will be looking forward to seeing me come back to this committee. I'm sure that anybody who's been before this committee as often as I have been.... That being said, I'm always pleased to accept your invitation.

Again, there is a substantial commitment by the Government of Canada. In this upcoming year it's $152 million. That's a substantial commitment by the Government of Canada, and we've demonstrated that commitment over the years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Madame Boivin.

Our next questioner is Mr. Wilks from the Conservative Party.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for being here today. I think that you and your department have done a great job over the years to ensure that we recognize victims of crime over those who are behind bars.

Having said that, on March 11, 2013, you announced that Bill C-26, , the Citizen's Arrest and Self-defence Act, had come into force. This was great news for all Canadians. At our committee we had heard from many witnesses who urged the swift passage of Bill C-26, and congratulate this government on its work to better victims' rights.

Could you please explain how this particular bill will enhance victims' rights in our country?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm very pleased to do so, Mr. Wilks, and thank you for your contributions and the interest that you've taken in this issue, as well as many others in the criminal justice field.

When we had a look at the laws with respect to self-defence, they appeared, I think, to all reasonable individuals that they were out of date. Quite frankly, an analysis of that would show that in fact the main wording, and there were some changes over the years, was brought in, in 1840, in the colony of Canada West; in fact, it was Upper Canada at the time, before it became Canada West.

When you looked at it and you saw how complicated it looked, it was time to review that so that people would know what it is they are able to do to protect themselves, their families, and their property. That's exactly what the bill has done. In addition, we clarified the provisions with respect to a citizen's arrest, so that an individual has a reasonable period of time to apprehend someone they see who is committing a crime against them.

Both of these, I can tell you Mr. Wilks, have been well received. Again, much of the analysis sometimes is on how much this costs. Once you clarify the law so people know what it is they can do and what they can't do, the justice system works better for everyone. It's in everyone's interest. On both those counts, we have made improvements to the laws.

A little over a week ago, I was very pleased to be in Toronto to present Mr. Chen with a copy of the bill that his problems helped initiate.

Again, it's been well received, and it was an idea whose time had come. I'm very pleased and proud that the government got behind that as quickly as it did and we got it passed.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much for that.

I, for one, would say that you'll find huge cost savings in that.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, you make a very good point. When you bring about efficiencies in the criminal justice system, many times people ask how much it is costing. I say that if the system runs better, it's more cost effective. I'll give you an example.

I was told by provincial attorneys general that the practice of giving two for one credit to individuals who were detained in provincial facilities awaiting the outcome of their charges was a huge cost to the provinces. I shouldn't say two for one credit, because I appreciate that in some places it was three for one. They were all unanimous in telling me that this was clogging up the provincial courts and the provincial remand centres. Provincial resources were being directed toward that.

I was only too pleased to indicate to them that the Government of Canada was very much interested in doing something about that. So, yes, we did bring in that bill, as I mentioned in my opening remarks. The system works better when we address issues like that. We listened to our provincial counterparts on that, and that was a success as well.

[David Wilks, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you, Mr. Wilks.

Thank you for that answer, Minister.

Our next questioner is Mr. Cotler from the Liberal Party.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing before us once again.

I appreciate that the Department of Justice has to bear its share with regard to certain cost-cutting approaches, but I want to ask you about three approaches on which I'm querying the judgment.

The first is a decrease of $5 million from the sunsetting of the funding for the initiative in support of access to justice in both official languages. In my view, this is an important initiative on both a symbolic level and a substantive level. Coming at a time that in Quebec we see Bill 14 itself prejudicing minority rights, it's almost inappropriate with respect to the federal government being involved in this kind of cost-cutting measure.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I appreciate that, and I agree that it's important on a number of different levels to be supportive of both official languages in this country. You're correct in the sense that the particular program sunsets as of the end of this month. That being said, I will be watching to see what is contained in the budget. As you'll find with a number of sunsetting items, a decision has to be made about moving forward, and of course that's contained in the upcoming budget.

As Madame Boivin pointed out, I'm here today and the budget is tomorrow, and—

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

You'll be back.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'll be back.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I hope we'll see it in the budget.

On a related matter that's part of these measures, again, grants and contributions spending will be reduced by $38.8 million by 2014. The biggest reduction is associated with, and Madame Boivin has mentioned it, the youth justice services funding program.

Given the importance of crime prevention and given the importance you're attaching with respect to victims' rights, this significant cut seems to be undermining the government's own objectives regarding crime prevention, public safety, and rights of victims.