Justice Committee on May 6th, 2013

[Louise Dionne]

I would add that it's important that justice be done to the victims, because they truly are victims. However, we have to be careful about how we go about it.

I agree this is an appalling crime and the perpetrator should be punished, so that everyone knows this practice is unacceptable in Canada. But that's not the point I wanted to make. We want to be certain that the reality and progression of the victims is taken into account. I wanted to make that clear.

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

I would also say that we support consecutive sentences, especially given that the Criminal Code already provides for that in the case of other crimes. I am thinking of possessing and making explosives or using a firearm, be it real or fake, in the commission of an offence. When you compare human trafficking to those crimes, it's clear that it is equally, if not much more, serious.

That being said, let's not be naive. You know as well as I do that studies of the United States show that the severity of sentences, all the way up to the death penalty, does not necessarily have the deterrent effect we would like and does not result in fewer crimes. We can hope that happens, we can try to make it happen, we can decide it's a priority and take action accordingly, but we shouldn't expect a miracle.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

That's great.

I want to quickly talk about the presumption sections in this bill, because I think those are also very important. We've heard from other witnesses who say this is going to give police a very important tool by which to prosecute, because sometimes victims don't actually want to come forward, and the police can make use of that section.

How important do you think it is to make sure that is drafted correctly and as clearly as possible?

Anyone who wants to can respond.

[Naomi Krueger]

It absolutely makes sense that we need to equip law enforcement as much as possible to be able to respond to this crime. A lot of what we're asking for is to do just that, but we're also asking for the information to be communicated effectively to those who are responding to this crime.

With regard to making sure it gets drafted correctly, my colleague mentioned that a lot of times some of our residents will give a statement to the police or at the hospital in triage and say, “No, no—he's my boyfriend. It's okay. I want him in the room with me. I'm really happy he's here. He's really supportive”. Then that statement is dragged into the whole case and used as evidence that maybe it wasn't as bad as she's saying it is now. We don't want to see that happen. We want to make sure that those kinds of statements and that kind of evidence don't get to be used as evidence to the contrary. We know that those kinds of statements are given as a survival technique or defence mechanism and that they are merely part of the case of trafficking and part of its complexity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

arThank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Mai from the New Democratic Party.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to each and every one of you for being here today. I also want to thank you for the incredible work you do.

My first question is for the CATHII representatives.

I've already asked the bill's sponsor whether this legislation could also apply to individuals who are exploited in the workplace, such as domestic workers. A number of experts have confirmed that it would apply to those situations, because there is a real problem in that regard.

I think you mentioned it, but could you elaborate on how this bill could help domestic workers?

[Louise Dionne]

Ms. Mourani's bill builds on what already exists to address human trafficking. As we mentioned during our presentation, oftentimes, this involves a progression. After working so many years with domestic workers, I do know that, in many cases, these migrant workers have had to prostitute themselves before coming to Canada.

In Canada, they are exploited doing domestic work, but that might be the least of what they've suffered in the course of their experience. Frequently, it's the same agency they dealt with in the Philippines, Hong Kong, Paris and Montreal. Having a piece of legislation that makes it possible to separate the two situations while addressing both is a positive addition.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Some experts have drawn a distinction. They said that domestic workers were indeed exploited and trafficked, but that the situation was not the direct result of prostitution or that it didn't necessarily involve that. They did confirm, however, that the issue needed to be addressed. We agree on that.

Ms. Miville-Dechêne, I hope I will be able to be there—and I do think I will—when we really get into the discussion on prostitution. The decision in the Bedford case is an important consideration. What's more, a number of experts who appeared before the committee talked about the Swedish model.

I believe you said that prostitution did not always lead to trafficking, but that trafficking always led to prostitution.

Aren't we overlooking female domestic workers who are exploited but not necessarily involved in prostitution?

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

I never meant to suggest that. I was saying that trafficking people for the purpose of sexual exploitation always leads to prostitution, but not the reverse.

You are right to point out that we must not overlook women—and men, for that matter—who are in that situation. We don't have very reliable figures on that, but as far as prostitution is concerned, we know that about 80% of the victims are women and young girls. But they make up 66% of forced labour victims. So although they aren't quite as prominent, they still represent the majority in that respect.

I must admit that our expertise doesn't extend to that issue. Our position really focuses on sexual exploitation. Ms. Dionne knows a good deal more than I do on that topic.

[Hoang Mai, NDP, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

I agree that sexual exploitation is horrible and seriously needs to be addressed. But since we're discussing these issues and talking about prevention, I think it's important to deal with this situation, which affects many women.

On that note, I am going to give the rest of my time to my colleague, Mr. Jacob.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

We have space for him.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

One of the concerns we raised pertained to aboriginal women, who, I believe, experience problems unique to them.

I'd like each of you to comment on their situation.

Who would care to start?

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

Aboriginal women are tremendously overrepresented among female prostitutes. That absolutely sad state of affairs is due to a number of factors, including acculturation and migration to cities. It's quite a terrible problem.

I will let Ms. Dionne speak to the trafficking dimension. I must tell you, even though I have to cut my comments a bit short because of time, this is one of our major concerns.

[Pierre Jacob, NDP, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Okay.

[Louise Dionne]

The channels that aboriginal women use to get out of their situation hinge on support for community-based initiatives. So even though the national action plan to combat human trafficking set out programs tailored specifically to women and aboriginal groups, we feel that support for community-driven initiatives is still insufficient.

These women often feel marginalized, generally speaking. For them, it can really be a way to gain the upper hand. When it comes to that form of exploitation, in other words, domestic trafficking, they are overrepresented, despite the fact they represent just 2% or 3% of Canada's population. Not doing more to help them is unacceptable.

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

I simply wanted to say that the Government of Quebec just launched an initiative to combat violence against women that focuses on aboriginal women. We haven't seen any results yet, as it was just announced not that long ago.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Jacob, we have another slot for the NDP that you may want to consider.

Our next questioner is from the Conservative Party, Mr. Armstrong.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I may share some of my time with my colleague.

I'm going to start with the Salvation Army.

Ms. Krueger, can you tell me briefly what Deborah's Gate does?

[Naomi Krueger]

Deborah's Gate is a safe house for survivors of human trafficking. We have 10 beds available to women who have been exploited, both from within Canada and from outside of Canada.

We exist to create a safe place, first and foremost, so it's an undisclosed location. It's a place where we have 24-hour support. We have amazing community support in Vancouver. We have clinical counsellors who provide trauma counselling. We have addiction counsellors who provide case-by-case addiction counselling. We have incredible support from Citizenship and Immigration; we have a representative from CIC in Vancouver. We have a vast team of legal experts who speak to us on different things. A lot of times, there is divorce or family law and different issues like that, and they provide resources and services to us.

We do our best to give back to survivors what has been taken from them, whether that's a grade-12 education, a relationship with their family, or an opportunity to work in employment they aspire to work in. It looks very different from day to day, but for the most part it's really just a restorative, safe environment.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

This came up in Mr. Seeback's question on sentencing when we were talking about the difference between “concurrent” and “consecutive”. In your experience, have there been a lot of victims who do not testify because they think the perpetrator will not get enough of a sentence? Even if four or five would testify, if there were a concurrent sentence, they might wonder what would be the use.

Is that a prevailing feeling among victims you've dealt with?

[Naomi Krueger]

I would say that we have only recently had any success encouraging victims to testify, because only recently have we had the support and community understanding of what trafficking is in relation to the Criminal Code. We've only recently been able to work with law enforcement officers who are willing to investigate under those Criminal Code provisions.

Our latest case was very disheartening. The victim was left wondering what all her trouble was for, why she bothered to put herself through all of that. Really—and this is quite telling—she said, “If they can't get the criminal justice process right, how can they keep me safe?”. She'd been told by law enforcement officers that she'd have the best lawyers, and they'd put everything right. Her response was that if they couldn't get that part right, there was no way they could keep her safe.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Moving to consecutive sentencing, how long would it take for that message to get out among the victims of this crime? Is that going to be a win for them? Are they going to view it that way? Will it inspire them, or would there have to be more changes later on?

[Naomi Krueger]

I was actually able to share with a few of our residents who are facing trials the fact that I would be here today speaking on their behalf and talking about the fact that you folks in this room are willing to look at consecutive sentencing. What they said to me was, “Just tell them how much safer I would be in Canada if this was available.” That's their message.

[Scott Armstrong, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester—Musquodoboit Valley, NS]

Thank you.

I'll pass along the rest of my time along.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I have just one minute, Mr. Chair? Okay.

Very quickly, Naomi, I know that I'm going to have a chance in a little while, so I just want to make a statement. The Salvation Army has done amazing things to help the victims of human trafficking. You give all of us courage, and I think the consecutive sentencing is very, very strong for all the victims....

I know that I don't have much time, so I'll just pass it over, Mr. Chair. I have a couple of very important questions, but we don't have the time. Thanks.