Justice Committee on May 6th, 2013

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Mr. Chair, this committee did study the victim surcharge, which the House then passed. We've doubled that. Those moneys go specifically to the provinces.

So I appreciate hearing that. I'm glad to say that the government has taken action on some of those concerns already.

Thank you.

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

In general, I agree with Louise Dionne. We also consider that the principles in this action plan are a step in the right direction.

To be perfectly frank, unlike British Columbia, Quebec has no shelters for women who are victims of trafficking. In general, we have no specialized programs to help prostitutes get out of the situation. We need specialized services, like detox. They do not quite match the needs that shelters for abused and battered women address. So we are asking for resources. Clearly, it is all in provincial jurisdiction, but we are happy about anything that can help the provinces provide victims with better support.

Training of police officers is another thing. We have seen trained police officers in Quebec. It makes a considerable difference when they see that women, prostitutes or not, who have lived a difficult life and who may sometimes not obey or appear to be a threat, are actually victims. You have to learn to look them in the eye, not at their chest. There are all kinds of little tricks that law enforcement has to learn in order to be able to have a conversation with these women and earn their trust.

And finally, we have to make sure that judges, lawyers and the entire legal system understands the issue. That is another stage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Okay, merci.

Thank you for that question and those answers.

From the Liberal Party, Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I am not a regular member of this committee, I have no in-depth knowledge of the issue. Please forgive me.

I found your testimony extraordinary, each of you.

You mentioned the psychological aspects, like the Stockholm Syndrome. When we think about human trafficking, we often think of slavery, people who are physically forced to do work that they do not want to do. You quite rightly said that there is also a psychological aspect to keeping these women captive.

Does the fact that the constraints are psychological make cases more difficult to prove in court?

I don't know who would like to answer that question.

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

By definition, the victim's cooperation is needed for a court appearance. But the victim goes through various stages: she loves her pimp, she does not love him any more, she sees qualities in him, and so on. With young victims, especially very impressionable ones, it can be difficult.

But there are some quite extraordinary programs in Quebec. With Mobilis, for example, all the social services in a youth centre join with a police service in an attempt to make the victim's testimony and care easier. Everyone says that it all comes down to the way victims are looked after. If they have good support with them in court, if they are not left by themselves, they will testify against their pimps.

[Naomi Krueger]

I would say that absolutely it's very difficult to prove trafficking in court because of the psychological damage that occurs throughout the grooming and recruitment process. It's a very targeted, manipulative practice. It's predatory. They choose women and girls who have a need in some capacity, and they provide for that need, and they abuse and violate that trust. Then to have somebody who doesn't know the definition of trust turn around and speak to that in court and be able to articulate very clearly to a jury or a judge or somebody who has no concept of their definition of trust the process that the perpetrator went through to recruit, groom, and exploit them can get very difficult. Often it's just damaging and discouraging for somebody to even attempt to make that definition and to make that clear to those determining the sentencing or determining the outcome of their lives.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

So it gets very complicated.

It seems that there are gangs recruiting these women. It seems that it is not just one person doing the trafficking, but groups of criminals. These are always gangs, are they not?

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

It depends. I said gangs because we know of situations in Montreal where street gangs of young men are involved in this kind of trafficking. But I would not venture to say that it is the norm.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

So it could be one person acting alone.

[Claudette Bastien]

Yes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

A little earlier, you talked about what leads these people to become victims. Are strip clubs one of the main channels for trafficking? Is that obvious to you?

[Julie Miville-Dechêne]

Yes, because they are places that are tolerated, given the legal vacuum, so to speak. Perhaps I shouldn't call it a vacuum. Let's just say that there have been conflicting rulings on lap dancing. Does it constitute prostitution? According to the latest information, I believe it did.

Strangely enough, the police don't get involved when strip clubs offer lap dancing. Do you know what lap dancing is? It can go way beyond a simple caress. It's verges on prostitution. In fact, it's a gateway for the dancers who go in those enclosed areas. Unfortunately, there are a lot of those establishments in Quebec, 200, I believe.

[Claudette Bastien]

More than 200.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

They're often run by gangs. Very often, that's the case. It's part of the structure that was set up to exploit these women.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

A minute left, Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Ms. Bastien or Ms. Dionne said there was a danger in this bill. There is a risk that victims might be blamed when they live with the procurer and do, for example, the bookkeeping for that person. Perhaps I shouldn't have worded it like that, but the fact remains the victim could be someone who is helping with the operation somehow.

[Louise Dionne]

That wasn't what I meant.

Our concern has more to do with the fact that this involves a progression. It's important to understand that trafficking is a world of manipulation. Confinement isn't always the tactic used. The perpetrators know how to make someone agree to do things and to be exploited without being paid.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Why do you think those people might be seen as being guilty?

[Louise Dionne]

Oftentimes, the only way for a victim of exploitation to get out of the situation is to become a trafficker herself. International reports have also shown that more female traffickers had been arrested than male ones.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers. This is excellent.

From the Conservative Party, Mr. Seeback, go ahead, please.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to talk a little about the sentencing provisions of this legislation, in particular with respect to the imposition of a consecutive sentence.

Ms. Dionne, I know you've said you have some issues with that, because you think there might be circumstances in which a victim could suffer the consequence of that section. I want to hear from others what you think about consecutive sentences.

I think it sends an important message to condemn this type of behaviour, and it will dramatically increase the sentences for people who are convicted of those crimes. I'll throw that down, and if I have time, I want to ask a couple of questions on the presumptions sections.

[Michael Maidment]

I think that's one of the things we were referencing. There's a bit of an equation that traffickers use. If the sentence isn't appropriate, traffickers see that potentially as part of the risk of committing the crime. I mentioned the experience of a victim who raised an estimated $620,000 for her trafficker over a two-year period. If there's an insignificant sentence that comes along with that, it's part of the risk that traffickers are willing to take on to make that amount of money. That's just one individual. If we were talking about an individual who had trafficked 10 or 20 victims and we start to compound the actual dollar amounts, then maybe a year or a couple of years in prison is not a bad risk.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

That's what we've heard as well from other people who have come to the committee. They say if you're going to serve your sentences concurrently, you might as well exploit six or ten women. But when you make them consecutive, maybe the equation doesn't add up quite so well.

[Naomi Krueger]

That's probably something I could echo from the survivors I work with on a day-to-day basis. They say, “What am I doing this for? Why am I testifying? Why am I spending 55 hours telling my story if I know he's going to get a year to two years with time served? How does that help me in the long run?” Not only would it send a strong message to victims who would want to tell their story and go before a judge; it would also send a strong message to traffickers that we've changed the way we do things in Canada and this is no longer okay, and they are going to be punished for it.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Brampton West, ON]

That's a really good point actually. You think it will actually help victims come forward so they'll think that their testimony is worthwhile. I hadn't thought about that.

Thank you.

Ms. Bastien or Ms. Dionne.