Justice Committee on July 7th, 2014

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Absolutely. A sexual service in the sense of—

[Diane Matte]

But security should also be defined. As feminists, we can't be satisfied with giving women a few more seconds to select their clients as an adequate way to ensure their security.

If it were possible to know which men were violent, we wouldn't have any abuse shelters in Canada or sexual assault centres. Having a few additional seconds, and sometimes even living with a man for years, doesn't allow women to know when a man is going to turn violent.

As far as the commodification aspect is concerned, I'm a bit shocked at how your're minimizing our arguments.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

No, I wasn't minimizing them. I was asking you how they felt.

[Diane Matte]

When you're talking about prostitution, supporters of the Bedford ruling or the total decriminalization of prostitution maintain that it's an industry with commercial transactions like any other. It's up to the women to decide whether they feel they are being objectified or not. It is clear, however, that the weight of their argument rests on the commercial transaction element, period.

We are saying it's not a commercial transaction. It is first and foremost an unequal practice.

[Françoise Boivin, NDP, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you. I think I understand your point.

Where you all pretty much agree, I find—thank God there's something on which everybody pretty much agrees—is that $20 million is ridiculous.

I would like you, Minister, to maybe first tell me this. After you sent your letter in February, did the federal minister contact you or anybody to view how the law should be drafted, other than just your position that the Nordic model is it? Is there some consultation between ministers of justice throughout this great country of ours, since you are pretty much the ones who will have to apply this new law, with your police services and so on?

You talked about $20 million being divided over the period of five years, which gives a pretty much ridiculous amount for Manitoba. But what is needed? What types of services are needed to do what everybody who believes in the Nordic model...who always put it with an equation that “We need exit support”? And exit support means what, exactly?

[Andrew Swan]

There are some big questions here.

Back in the fall, at the ministers meeting in Whitehorse, I advanced on behalf of Manitoba our view that the Nordic model was the way to go. I wrote to Minister MacKay early in February. I know that MP Joy Smith and I had discussed it. I made sure every Manitoba MP got a copy of the letter. I haven't heard from Mr. MacKay since the letter was sent early in February.

In terms of the kinds of services needed to help sexually exploited victims leave behind their life, it is difficult because of the trauma they've sustained. Attached to the submission is Tracia's Trust, which is a summary of the various things Manitoba is doing. There is no one simple answer. In many cases it may be people who have physical trauma, very much like that of returning soldiers. In some cases it's addictions problems or mental health issues.

One of the things we found very helpful, which I think maybe we've understood a bit more about this afternoon, is how helpful it is to have experiential people, who have the credibility of talking about what their life was about, who maybe have the best ability to work with people to try to effect that change.

We have the prostitution diversion program. This is only a three-day program, run by the Salvation Army. We intend to continue that program. Whatever Bill C-36 looks like, that, in and of itself, does not work miracles. We are not going to get somebody who's been sexually exploited to magically, in the course of those three days, change their life. But if they can get into that camp, get cleaned up, eat properly, sleep, which oftentimes is not possible, and then at least have an opportunity to be lined up with various agencies that can help them to make that choice, then we'll be further ahead. But it is not easy.

I don't want to be flippant, but the amount of money Manitoba will get every year, if it goes per capita, may allow us to help one person, or two people, and we know there's a greater demand than that. These are people who have suffered tremendously.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Thank you for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Mrs. Smith.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for coming here today to give us your opinions.

Mr. Swan, I applaud you for all the work you do in Manitoba. I really applaud your support of Bill C-36, and your advice on some amendments. For the first time in Canada, the purchase of sex will be illegal, and that will help a lot of things. First-time advertising by third parties will be addressed, and for the first time we have compassion in the bill.

Having said that, could you expand a bit on what a victim actually needs? With living in the part of Winnipeg you live in and being on some of the streets that both of us have been on, perhaps you could give the committee insight as to what really happens.

I applaud Natasha and Rose for speaking today. It was fantastic. But could you give an overview as an elected person?

[Andrew Swan]

It's true. I represent the inner west end of Winnipeg where there is street prostitution that takes place. I know there is other exploitation that takes place behind closed doors.

Obviously, the challenges are huge, and we've tried to get at some of the issues. If somebody comes forward who says they've been on the streets and they need help, if the first thing we do is to take away their children, we're not actually getting anywhere. So family services can certainly use more assistance to help people come up with a plan to battle their addiction issue or their mental health issue while knowing that they're not going to have to leave their children.

One of the things that traditionally happened in Manitoba and elsewhere is that if you were out on the street and you were on social assistance, your social assistance worker would say they would cut off your social assistance. What do we think is going to happen when we take away the person's social assistance?

In many cases, it's housing. People don't have safe and affordable housing. In many cases it is mental health services and addiction services. In many cases it's moving people away from the situation they're in, which many times people want. It's not easy to do because you might be leaving behind the—

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Our time is going, so I have another point to make. I have a couple of more questions with the others.

Thank you.

What stands out, and what I've heard, is the symbiotic relationship between provincial jurisdiction and federal jurisdiction—a partnership. For the first time, the federal law, Bill C-36, is working in partnership with what you're doing in the province of Manitoba. I dare say it's one child at a time or one victim at a time, isn't it?

I also want to ask Jean McDonald a question. You were saying you are helping to lessen the risk to the prostitutes on the street. Can you tell me whether you get paid for this position, or do you do it voluntarily?

[Jean McDonald]

Pardon me? What does my job have to do with the legislation that we are discussing today?

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

I'm just wondering if, in helping the—

[Jean McDonald]

It's not—

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

You don't want to answer that question? That's fine.

[Jean McDonald]

I don't think it's pertinent to this discussion whatsoever.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Okay, that's fine.

[Jean McDonald]

I am the executive director.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

Right.

I think you're taking offence. You mentioned that you were getting funding from the provincial government in Ontario.

[Jean McDonald]

Yes, that's because we—

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

I don't think she was asking you how much you get paid. She wanted to know if the organization, as we might ask, is based on volunteers or employees.

[Jean McDonald]

How does whether I am employed or a volunteer.... I'm still not sure how....

Maybe Joy could explain how my employment impacts this bill.

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Well, it's just as the chair said.

[The Chair, Conservative, Mike Wallace]

It's okay.

You don't want to answer the question. I was just explaining the question. If you don't want to answer the question—

[Joy Smith, Conservative, Kildonan—St. Paul, MB]

Thanks. Obviously we'll leave that. We can find that out.

Madam Matte, I really liked what you were saying about the issue being the dignity of women, and, Rose, you underlined that.

Could either one of you voice what you think is so beneficial in Bill C-36? You've given some suggestions for amendments as well.

Rose, you came today and you said that you fully support Bill C-36. What is it about Bill C-36 that would help, in a practical way, those who need that help on the streets?

[Rose Sullivan]

Criminalizing the men instead of the women, who, at the end of the day, are victims, initiates a shift in attitudes.

And as far as the various components addressing violence against women go, they were long overdue. This legislation is absolutely needed not just because it endeavours to create equality between men and women, but also because it shows that prostitution isn't innocuous, isn't an option that should be considered when someone is going through a hard time.

A country that offers women opportunities to exit prostitution should not be sending them the message that prostitution is an acceptable solution when they need money, are destitute and don't have an education. It would be more appropriate to let them know the solutions that are available to them.