Evidence of meeting #39 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-36.
A video is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
That's another strong benefit of this law, that it actually recognizes that societal fabric. The people who don't want to have prostitutes around children can now feel protected because Bill C-36 prevents that.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
On the fact that it still criminalizes women—and we've talked about women—I received some e-mails during lunch saying that there are male prostitutes also.
You consider them victims also, I'm sure.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
Okay.
And on the fact that we criminalize them with Bill C-36, I'm not sure, but I think I heard you say that you were not for that part of the bill. Do you think we have to remove this from Bill C-36, or will you live with it: “you're a victim, but you'll be criminalized anyway”?
As an Individual
It was my colleague Ms. Miller, on behalf of her organization, REED, who suggested that be eliminated. I'm not suggesting that.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
You're okay with the fact that if they are victims they could be criminalized anyway.
As an Individual
What I'm okay with is that prostitution shouldn't take place where there are children. I'm okay with that, and I think that will pass constitutional muster as well.
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
As a lawyer, do you think the section is clear enough, for instance, what is public, where kids could be....
How would you define it?
As an Individual
Well, I agree with you that it could be clarified. That could be an amendment that is undertaken by your committee, to make it very clear so there are no misunderstandings—
NDP
Françoise Boivin NDP Gatineau, QC
Do you have suggestions? You're brilliant, so I would love to have suggestions.
As an Individual
I haven't given any thought to that aspect of the law because I'm in favour of the entire law.
However, I could certainly e-mail you and give you some suggestions. I'd be happy to do that.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you very much for those questions and answers.
Our next questioner, from the Conservative Party, is Ms. Ambler.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all for being here today. We really do appreciate your contribution to our committee.
Ms. Perrier, I'd like to give you some extra thanks and gratitude for being here today. I know it must be very difficult to tell us your story, but it really does help us, and I think it helps Canadians who are watching to understand why we need to do this.
If you're okay with it, I'd like you to help me understand something. This is our third day here. I know you've been here listening, so I'd like your perspective on a particular issue related to negotiating or screening. I'd like to ask if you agree with some of the testimony we have heard from people. I'm not sure that they themselves have actually ever done this. Some have, and some say that Bill C-36 will make it more difficult for those involved in prostitution to negotiate a better deal, and it will make them somehow less safe.
I'm wondering if you think that will happen with this bill. If you have had any experience with that, perhaps you could let us know that as well.
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
For me, I think prostitution is inherently dangerous. There is no form of screening that would tell you if the guy is going to kill you. To even communicate with the johns is very tricky; that is why we call them “tricks”.
I was involved in prostitution as a child and as an adult. The same acts were put on me at 12 years old and at 22 years old. These guys are very savvy. You have to gauge them. If they are angry at you or if they feel you have ripped them off…it's all about gauging them and that.
I've had clients, past johns, that have contacted me now that I'm out in public, speaking about it, and they have asked me if I am going to write a book and to please don't. So if it were so honourable, why are they asking me not to write a book? Well, I am going to write a book, and I'm going to use their names and I'm going to use the make of car. I'm going to talk about what they look like, and go right into depth, because I think the wives need to know too. Why protect these guys? I have years of wear and tear on my body. As the mother of a son and a sister of brothers, this is something I wouldn't want my brothers doing, or my son.
I've never met a nice john. I've met a john that was able to give me money for this and that and that, but I’ve never met a nice john. They all had an ulterior motive and the motive was sex with me.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
Thank you.
So, your clients weren't all respectful and educated?
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
Actually, as a child, one of my clients was a crown attorney in Thunder Bay, and he paid for me and was caught with me, and I got put on trial. I grew up being shamed in my own community for what a grown man who was put in a place of power did. I got rejected from where I grew up and was raised because of this crown attorney that did this with young girls. That was his thing—little girls. He would get an older girl to bring us little girls to him. The older girl was a 30-year-old madam.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
I know that your time as a trafficked person and being kidnapped was partly as an underage girl and partly as a woman over 18. Would you say that it was all of a sudden magically possible for you at the age of 18 or 19 to make better deals and negotiate better terms, to screen your clients better? Would you say that it improved a lot when you turned 18?
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
To be really truthful, I made a lot more money as a child than I did as an adult. They paid me a lot more when they knew I was 12 years old. As an adult woman I felt that I had control, but I didn't have control because when I stepped back from prostitution to be a mom, I realized in my own marriage and everything it was all like a façade; it seeped through. It was like this elephant in the room.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
You've been here this whole time. When you hear other witnesses talk about consent and choice and choosing this life—what is going through your mind, if you don't mind my asking?
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
I don't think little girls aspire to service multitudes of different men as adults. I think lack of choice consists of choice. When women involved in prostitution say that this is their choice, they are feeling somewhat in need to control and hold some kind of control to it. That's why they say they choose it. If you had asked me when I was 22 if I chose to be in the life, I would have said yes, I was there of my own free will. But I didn't realize that prostitution chose me.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
If I could close with you, I also would like to thank you for being a mother to Angel and taking over where her mother left off after she was murdered. Also, congratulations on the adoption of your little boy.
Conservative
Stella Ambler Conservative Mississauga South, ON
I have a question for Mr. Atchison. I know it is hard for you to be here too because there are other viewpoints expressed, and I do appreciate you have done a lot of research and spoken to thousands of women who are in prostitution as adults and who've made that their choice. I know those are the only ones you work with, so you don't work with folks like Bridget and you don't work with any underage trafficked girls and women.
But what percentage do you think you're working with? What percentage are you dealing with who are happy with their line of work as opposed to those who are trapped and have no choice?
Research Associate, Department of Sociology, University of Victoria, As an Individual
I'd like to start by saying it's actually delightful to be here because these types of dialogues need to happen. They need to happen more frequently and they need to happen more publicly, because it is with this exchange of knowledge and experiences that we will actually arrive at a better understanding of things.
In terms of the percentages of sex workers working in the industry, I can't comment directly on that. My colleagues from my sister project can comment more directly on the percentage who are underage.
In our most recent project, we focused exclusively on adult consensual sexual service exchanges, so none of the individuals we talked to would have been under 18, and very few of those individuals started in the industry prior to 18.
Speaking to the issue of the demand for those people under 18, that's one thing I can speak to. I asked people in my surveys time and time and time again what age ranges they prefer. Fewer than one percent of clients I have spoken to indicate a preference for somebody under the age of 18. In fact, there is a correlate—
Conservative