Evidence of meeting #39 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-36.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:20 p.m.
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
You know what? I exited with a Canada-wide warrant, so it didn't have any effect.
Actually, you know, I look at it as a blessing. I look at it as things happen for a reason, and it saved my life.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
I know that you've been here all week. You've heard the testimony this morning from Ms. Ekberg. You've heard testimony from NWAC. There have been some questions posed on behalf of the Chiefs of Ontario with respect to concerns over the lack of recognition of the unique vulnerability of our first nations with respect to prostitution. Ms. Ekberg's suggestion was that there should be something in the preamble.
Do you have an opinion with respect to whether or not Bill C-36 adequately takes into account that unique vulnerability?
2:20 p.m.
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
I think Bill C-36 will protect aboriginal women a little bit more. I think there is a dialogue that's opened, and with the amount of missing and murdered aboriginal women, this bill will recognize the need to protect them.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you.
Mr. Atchison, I have not yet seen any written briefs that you may have submitted, although we have tremendous respect for evidence-based decision-making and, obviously, you share that respect.
First of all, have you submitted a brief that we're going to be able to consider?
2:20 p.m.
Research Associate, Department of Sociology, University of Victoria, As an Individual
I have submitted it as part of a team brief. I will be submitting a second brief tomorrow.
2:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Could you comment on the absence of any measures in Bill C-36 with respect to research and data collection and/or any allocation specifically within the $20 million dedicated to research and data collection, please.
2:20 p.m.
Research Associate, Department of Sociology, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Yes. It's vitally important that we have an ongoing understanding of this industry if we are going to regulate it and provide services to people involved in this industry. So it's vitally important that however we go about regulating this industry, we keep those doors of communication, those channels of communication, open. I don't see that Bill C-36 is doing that. In fact, I think the restrictions on communications and advertising will make it even less possible to access an already difficult population, and an even more difficult population, being the people who purchase sexual services, will become almost impossible now. Sex workers will become more difficult and clients will become impossible.
2:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
Thank you very much.
Thank you for those questions and answers.
Our next questioner from the Conservative Party is Mrs. Smith.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Mr. Wallace.
Bridget, we have known each other for a very long time and you are one of Canada's heroes for what you've done. You can't begin to describe all that you have walked through. If you listen to all of this and you listen to the politicians and everybody has their reasons for saying whatever.... When you listen to the sex workers who have never seen a young child, ever, in the sex trade, and when you hear researchers say they've just dealt with adults with consensual sex, what I'm concerned about.... And I'm thinking back to 2004 when I first became an MP and the country was in denial that there was human trafficking, let alone children in human trafficking. Can you make some comment on that because you know? Could you link that to organized crime?
2:25 p.m.
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
The men and women who exploited me were involved in organized crime. It comes hand in hand.
I think it's a boldfaced lie for someone who is involved in prostitution to sit up here and say they've never encountered a child. In my time working across Canada, do you know how many times I used to drag little girls home to their mothers, because I knew they were getting set up for what I had already endured? I never wanted any little girl to experience pain like that. But it's a boldfaced lie for people to say they've never seen a child involved in prostitution.
Actually it mortifies me when I hear the term “child sex worker” and it devalues that child. That is an abused and exploited child. When is it differentiated, when a $100 bill is thrown in that child's hands whether it's a little boy or a little girl?
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
What strikes me now in 2014 is that finally the voices of the survivors are coming forward. As a survivor and a person who has gone out and rescued yourself and a lot of young children and supported them, as I know you have, and also, on the Willie Pickton file—and you know that I worked with a joint victim of Willie Pickton's murders—what is something you want to say to the government right now because you're here in support of Bill C-36? How can we better get the voice of more of the survivors, the people who have been there, to come and speak out like you have so eloquently for so long?
2:25 p.m.
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
I think we need to just have this dialogue. I think that with all of what's going on with the legislation and that it will open that dialogue. Every day I open up my email and there are two more women or girls, or mother of a girl, or whatever, who ask me to help them. I don't know, I really—
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Bridget, can I ask you another question because I know I'll run out of time?
Tell me about the johns. We've heard all week that the nice guys, the johns, have their needs. I can understand that, but, by the same token, the picture is that this is normal behaviour and that these johns are nice people who have a need that they need for a little while and that they're very respectful in every way. Can you answer that in any way, shape, or form from your experience?
2:25 p.m.
Co-Founding Member, Sextrade101
We've been working alongside the Invisible Men Project, and every day we get an e-mail about quotes from these johns taken from a website that rates prostitutes.
This one reminds me of my daughter's mother: “I chose her thinking mileage may be better if she's a little desperate for money. Totally not worth it. I wasn't even going to tip her but she hung around the room, while I showered, telling me how it was so slow today, etc. On an unrelated note, my wife leaves next week to visit relatives so the marathon tour begins. Normally, I can only get out during the day, while working, but this means strip joints at night and SW cruising. I'll post my results”.
They are hunters.
2:25 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you.
I have one question for Michelle Miller.
Can you tell the committee how addressing the demand will help all the women that you work with? Does Bill C-36 drive women underground?
2:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Resist Exploitation, Embrace Dignity (REED)
I'm glad you asked me that. I do think that Bill C-36 would address demand. It helps the women by decreasing the market. It's using a really crass economic term, which is one way of viewing prostitution. If there was no market then women would not have to be recruited to be fed into that market. Their vulnerability is taken advantage of for that reason.
I don't think it would be driven underground for the simple reason that the johns still have to be able to find the women. So it's not going to be underground. I think this notion that women will be less safe when they're hidden away somewhere is very interesting. I'm not sure where that underground is. Is it supposed to be a bunker somewhere, or a cellar somewhere? We hear this term “underground”, but there are going to be places where johns can find them. I think it's interesting that sex industry industrialists are asking for women to be indoors where it is safer, but they are afraid they would be pushed out of sight into underground places. There seems to be this really duplicitous sense of what would keep women safe.
What we know from working with women is that the harm comes from the johns no matter what the location is. There is no way to keep them safe.
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Thank you, Michelle.
I have a question for Mr. Atchison. You seem to have a really good respect for research, and thank you for that. As Mr. Casey says, we always want evidence-based research. You deal only with what you call “consensual” adults, correct?
2:30 p.m.
Research Associate, Department of Sociology, University of Victoria, As an Individual
Adult, consensual, sexual exchanges.
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
Have you ever thought about expanding your research to the survivors of human trafficking in this country? We've got lots of them.
2:30 p.m.
Research Associate, Department of Sociology, University of Victoria, As an Individual
I've thought about that but from all the information I've ever seen that's choosing to study a fraction of an industry at the expense of the majority of the industry.
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
Joy Smith Conservative Kildonan—St. Paul, MB
So you think that the majority are adult sex buyers and workers consensually doing what they want to do? Are you saying you think that is the majority in your research?
2:30 p.m.
Research Associate, Department of Sociology, University of Victoria, As an Individual
I use the term “consent” very guardedly because the whole notion of consent, in and of itself, has to be discussed, understood, and defined more adequately. I do believe, purely on the basis of the research that I've done, that the vast majority of, particularly, the off-street sex industry is consensual between adults.
2:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace
That's your time. Thank you for those questions and answers.
Our next questioner from the New Democratic Party is Madam Péclet.
July 9th, 2014 / 2:30 p.m.
NDP
Ève Péclet NDP La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My question is for Ms. Dussault.
Has your experience taught you that criminalizing clients will actually lead to less demand?
There are surely studies showing the opposite to be true or corroborating other people's positions. But I would like you to just speak from your own experience. Will it reduce demand, yes or no?
2:30 p.m.
Member, Prostitutes Involved, Empowered, Cogent - Edmonton
Honestly, I have not done research on that so I'm not 100% sure. From my experiences in Australia versus Canada, it's about equal.
Each person is an individual, so I can't speak to when they'll have needs or what not, but it definitely will make everybody safer. I've experienced that first-hand. Being in Australia, everything was quite lovely. The clients were awesome. I did not come into contact with anybody who was underage or trafficked. Immigration was very pointed about that.
As for the clients, it was roughly about the same numbers in my books, from what I've experienced.