Evidence of meeting #63 for Justice and Human Rights in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was offenders.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Susan Ashley  As an Individual
Sharon Rosenfeldt  President, Victims of Violence Canadian Centre for Missing Children
Josh Paterson  Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Howard Krongold  Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Lyne Casavant  Committee Researcher

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Right, but the parole is automatic. It's not like the faint hope, which is optional. Is that correct? The parole hearings are automatic. Do I understand that correctly? They're every two years. Right? That's my understanding. How many of those people with that automatic parole eligibility actually get the parole?

5:10 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Howard Krongold

I don't know.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Is it a large number? Is it a small number? Does anybody know?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

I'll ask our analysts to give us the information they have gathered thus far on this particular item.

5:10 p.m.

Lyne Casavant Committee Researcher

It's a very, very difficult question. We looked at the database and the media resources and tried to find people that met the criteria of Bill C-587, and we were able to find five cases where all the criteria were there.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Rape, kidnapping, and murder.

5:10 p.m.

Committee Researcher

Lyne Casavant

Yes, and only five cases. It doesn't mean that it's comprehensive, but it's possible that if you are charged with murder they will not go for the other accusation, or they will not pursue it if you get life sentence for first-degree murder. It's difficult to know.

On the five that we have on the list, Paul Bernardo is still inside. Some of them are not yet eligible for parole, so it's impossible to see if they would get parole when they would be eligible for parole, but it seems that they tend to stay inside prison for a very long time.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

If that's the case and it's the presumption that they rarely get parole, then the benefit of the bill from the perspective of the victim is that at least if the criminal or the convicted person is very unlikely to get parole under such heinous circumstances, why wouldn't we afford the victims the benefit of not having to go through these parole hearings? That's a question for Howard or the folks in B.C. If it's not likely that they're ever going to get parole, why would we put the victim through it?

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Mr. Paterson.

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Josh Paterson

Chair, what I would suggest, and the stats we were able to find, which were really from media reports, suggested very much the same thing, is that few dangerous offenders coming up are getting parole. But the key from our perspective to maintaining the legitimacy and justice of the system is that the government has to undertake that assessment, however uncomfortable it may—

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Legitimacy for whom? For the victim? From the court's perspective? From society's perspective?

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Josh Paterson

Legitimacy from the perspective of the right of the government to incarcerate someone. Now that we don't have capital punishment, incarcerating someone is the most egregious thing that we allow governments to do to anyone.

In situations like these it is quite merited that the incarceration power be used. But when a certain point of time arises past the minimum sentence that we have in the law, it is important for the government to have to check in and see if it continues to serve the public and the state's interest to hold someone. In many cases it will. In some cases, however, it will not. I understand the victim's perspective, but justice is not being achieved if there is an individual who is no longer dangerous, who has served their debt, and despite the pain that it may cause to a family to have to go through a hearing, the individual really ought to be entitled to have that hearing, to have some objective person make a decision about whether they can rejoin society. That's why we would say we still need to have those hearings.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Wetaskiwin, AB

Howard, did you want to add something?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Howard Krongold

One thing I would add is that it's really difficult to look retrospectively at the people who have been convicted of these three offences arising out of the same transaction, because again you would rarely see a person charged with first-degree murder along with any other offence. Typically the only offence you need to go with is first-degree murder and you are either going to prove that or not. Usually if it's a whodunit that solves the case and most of these cases don't involve serious questions about mens rea and that sort of thing. You would typically see a person charged with a single count of first-degree murder. There may be plenty of other cases out there of people who would have been susceptible to this maybe because they are a party, maybe because they are an aider or an abettor to somebody else committing an offence of this sort who you could imagine 25 years down the line may well be sufficiently reformed that there would be a strong interest in releasing them.

But it is certainly true that the only cases where they throw the book at somebody by charging them with everything under the sun are the most heinous cases. So I think that probably skews the sample in terms of whether these are people likely to be released.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Mike Wallace

Thank you very much for those questions and answers.

Our next questioner is Mr. Casey from the Liberal Party.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

I just want to follow up on that last series of answers.

We have it from our analysts that had this bill been in effect for the last while, there were five cases that would have been impacted. I've actually seen that research and Russell Williams isn't on it so it may be five or it may be six.

I heard you say, Mr. Krongold, that one explanation for this is that while there may be other individuals involved in cases like this, by the time you get to court it makes very little sense to proceed with anything except the most serious charge. Given those circumstances and the very limited scope, as well intentioned as this bill is, do you see a distinct probability going forward that it will make no difference?

5:15 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Howard Krongold

I think there is always going to be a temptation by prosecutors to try to find clever ways to hold extremely serious sentences over an accused's head and prosecute them, obviously within reason, but with any plausible threat of an exceptional sentence they can muster. So I don't know. I think there will be an incentive to impose it. Is it going to be mostly in cases where we're talking about these really egregious and heinous crimes where everybody expects these people are never going to get out of jail? My concern is that it's not just going to be in those cases. Those cases are so extremely rare anyway. I think it has the potential of being held over the head of people who are less culpable than those we usually associate with these three offences, because there's going to be an option and creative prosecutors will, obviously within reason, look for ways to find cases where this sort of exceptional exemplary sentence can be at least charged if not fully prosecuted.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Okay.

You will both be aware that as a private member's bill, this is not subject to section 4.1 of the Department of Justice Act, but the mover has indicated that he has received an opinion from the Library of Parliament. Does either of you have an opinion as to, first of all, either the constitutionality of this legislation or, if not as strong as that, the vulnerability of something like this to a constitutional challenge?

Perhaps we'll start with you, Mr. Paterson.

5:15 p.m.

Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Josh Paterson

I think there's vulnerability here. To be honest, I didn't have enough notice of this appearance to do a more fulsome analysis. I think that in any instance when you're dealing with depriving someone of liberty, which of course is ultimately what all sentencing is about, you have questions about that, and taking away, or at least delaying due process around eligibility for parole would certainly trigger the section 7 liberty interests under the charter. The question then would be whether it does so in a way that's conducive to the principles of fundamental justice, and whether it is justified, and I think that's where you would get into these arguments. To be honest, the fact that there really isn't any evidence here to say that this would achieve a benefit, in terms of making society safer, that couldn't be achieved in another way—say, through dangerous offender designations and so forth—I think leaves some potentially significant liabilities in terms of justification. In fact, in some ways the government is already doing the thing that minimally impairs people's rights through the dangerous offender provisions, as compared to through a provision like this.

I say all of this without having conducted a fulsome analysis.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Thank you, Mr. Paterson.

Mr. Krongold, do you have a view on that?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Howard Krongold

To my knowledge, the last time anybody challenged the constitutionality of the sentence for first-degree murder was in the 1990s. There were two appellate decisions, one from Alberta and one from Quebec, but that was at a time when the faint hope clause was in place, and both courts found that the actual minimum sentence being imposed was life without parole for at least 15 years, because there was the sort of release valve of faint hope. I don't think anybody has gone back to the courts since faint hope was revoked, and, in particular, there are now provisions for consecutive periods of parole ineligibility that would extend, obviously, well beyond 25 years for multiple first-degree murders. I don't believe there's been a challenge to that yet. I expect there probably will be at some point, but those cases aren't that common.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

We know that if this bill had been in effect years ago, there might have been five or six cases. I think we also know that nobody who has been convicted of these three offences has ever obtained parole. If I'm wrong, I hope you'll correct me. Then that leaves us with the reason for passing a bill like this being, for families, to minimize or eliminate the trauma of their having to continue to show up at parole hearings.

Does either of you have any statistics on the percentage of families that actually do elect to show up and participate?

5:20 p.m.

Director, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Howard Krongold

No, that's outside my bailiwick.

5:20 p.m.

Executive Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association

Josh Paterson

I don't have that information either.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE

Can you offer any perspectives on ways to minimize the trauma associated with repeat parole hearings besides the one put forward in this bill? What alternatives might be considered to address the only evil this appears to have a chance at being effective against?