Evidence of meeting #127 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fighting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Those are important, so perhaps you can get in a really short and snappy one, and then Ms. Labchuk can give a quick answer.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you very much.
Thank you for the work that Animal Justice does.
You have suggested that cruelty provisions in the Criminal Code are different here because judges are not empowered to ban a person convicted of a section 160 offence from owning, having custody or control of, or residing in the same premises as an animal. This animal ownership ban that you've sought, which I, by the way, find compelling....
You've talked about how there are different parts of the Criminal Code where these provisions are found. Does a judge currently have no discretion for an animal ownership ban or the things you've sought? Must we do this to achieve this, or is there discretion in a sentencing judge in any event?
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Animal Justice
To my knowledge, the only other provision that would be of assistance is that a period of probation could include a term that prevents a person from having contact with an animal during that period. I used to be a criminal lawyer, but it has been a few years. I believe that the maximum probation period is three years. That would expire at the end of that term, and then a person would be free to go and obtain animals. That would be a gap.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC
A lifetime ban is what you would achieve, beyond three years presumably.
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Animal Justice
I always think it's appropriate to give judges that discretion. If they think five years, 10 years or a lifetime is appropriate, I think that's right.
9:40 a.m.
Liberal
February 5th, 2019 / 9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for your testimony today. I want to start by following up on something that Mr. Cooper brought up.
Ms. Labchuk, you mentioned section 447, I believe, and amending it to ensure that animals, once seized, are not destroyed. Can you elaborate on that?
Also, for animals that have been abused, birds especially, what kind of resources would organizations like yours require in order to rehabilitate or take care of those animals once they have been saved?
9:40 a.m.
Executive Director, Animal Justice
Right now, in a situation where there would be a bust of an animal-fighting ring—be it dogs or birds—what would typically happen is that police and/or the SPCA or humane society, usually working in partnership with each other for a larger bust in particular, would go into that situation. They would seize those animals, often pursuant to provincial legislation. Those animals would be housed by the humane society or SPCA, typically. At that point, there would be the ability for them to be given care if they need it, and the ability for a veterinarian to determine whether an animal should be humanely euthanized, if that's the appropriate situation.
As far as the longer-term disposition of those animals goes, there are a number of options. Sanctuaries are something that in this province and across the country we're starting to see more of. There are sanctuaries specifically dealing with many types of animals. There are dog sanctuaries, horse sanctuaries and sanctuaries for farmed animals as well, where animals rescued from farming situations can live out the rest of their lives in some semblance of what they would experience in a more natural environment. There are facilities that are able to take in birds, for sure, and provide assistance to them.
In terms of how to make an evaluation of whether it's appropriate to rehabilitate an animal, especially a bird, I would leave that to veterinary experts to comment on. I know that you will be hearing from some representatives from the BC SPCA, who have been involved in bird-fighting busts and may be able to offer more information.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you.
Ms. Cartwright, do you have any comment on that?
9:45 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Humane Canada
No. I would say that's exactly how it happens.
I think the important thing to note, too, is that there is the ability for restitution on behalf of the courts. It was something that we did manage to get updated back in the mid-2000s. There is a huge weight of cost, time and emotional effort that humane societies and SPCAs take on in rehabilitating animals, particularly for large seizures such as you would get at an animal-fighting ring.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Ms. Cartwright, you also drew a connection between abuse against animals and abuse against humans, especially children. What are the implications of that observation in terms of how crimes against animals are dealt with in Canada?
Do crimes need to be more tailored to the contextual approach saying that if somebody's abusing an animal in a home, for example, there is a stronger likelihood of there being child abuse? Do you think that our Criminal Code needs to take that into account, in terms of designing its crimes and sentencing?
9:45 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Humane Canada
I think more needs to be taken into account in the actual enforcement of the laws. If the laws are strong for children and animals to protect them, then they will be effective.
Where we see it falling apart is that our enforcement authorities aren't necessarily working together. Our community responses to child protection and animal protection need to work more closely together. For example, when an SPCA officer goes into a home to respond to an animal cruelty call, have they looked at the child? If they see something, their duty to report it and call in child protection is important. Likewise, we need to see it the opposite way. If someone has gone in under a child protection call, are they looking at the animals, and can they report?
This is part of why we started the Canadian Violence Link Coalition. We have 10 diverse, different streams of society coming together in the Canadian Violence Link Coalition, to better strengthen the work across those lines so that we have a strong response to all forms of violence, because it is so critical.
If the laws are strong and we have co-operation amongst the different agencies, then we'll be able to better protect all those vulnerable animals and people, and have safer communities.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Do you think more research needs to be done in drawing that causation or correlation between the two types of crimes?
9:45 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Humane Canada
I think people like to hear the evidence; however, as I was saying earlier, we do have 50 years of evidence, and it's all around the world.
I am pleased that Dr. Amy Fitzgerald is doing research here in Canada. I might add that research has brought forward the fact that hasn't been seen before in research. She was able to do a test to determine the correlation of the severity of the abuse to the animal to the severity of the abuse to the human. She has found that they're directly related: the more severe the animal abuse, the more severe the human suffering.
That kind of research is very helpful, but I would say that we already have the research and it's time to act.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
When we talk about having laws to address issues such as bestiality and violence against animals, children, etc., I always want to know the root cause of that violence. In this instance, do we know what the root causes are? Can we get to know what the root causes are? How do we address the issue at the root cause?
9:45 a.m.
Chief Executive Officer, Humane Canada
That's a question as to what the root cause of violence is and I am probably not the best academic—I'm not an academic—to actually answer that question. I am also not a psychologist. So I can't answer on what the root cause of violence is.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
9:45 a.m.
Adjunct Professor, Health Management, Atlantic Veterinary College, Canadian Veterinary Medical Association
It goes back; often people who abuse animals were abused as children. This has been shown by the evidence over and over again. They may have observed animal abuse, so it definitely goes forward across generations, like domestic violence, but I think it's a very large question.
9:45 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
To tie things up, Ms. Labchuk, I know you'll send a copy of the amendment you're proposing to the committee, but essentially what I imagine you're proposing with respect to the prohibition order is taking subsection 447.1(1), and adding the sections on bestiality to the list of sections to which it would apply.
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
If for whatever reason I would judge that unreceivable because that section is not being amended, then would it be taking that wording in reverse and putting it back into the bestiality sections?
9:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Okay, thank you. It was very constructive, really helpful.
Thanks to all three of you for all you do to protect animals and vulnerable Canadians every day.
We'll take a brief pause and ask the next panel to come up.