Justice Committee on Feb. 27th, 2019

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

The answer is no, but I could endeavour to think further about this. It's not that I haven't had conversations with the Clerk of the Privy Council one-on-one. I did have a conversation with him on September 19 one-on-one in my office. I've known the Clerk for many years, and throughout the course of my being a minister, we have had the opportunity to have conversations, but a direct conversation or a direct meeting is something that wasn't very regular.

[Michael Cooper]

Thank you for that.

In your opening statement, you characterized the meeting by stating that “I was having thoughts of the Saturday night massacre”. Can you elaborate on that?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Well, I'll give a bit of a Wikipedia version of the Saturday night massacre. Perhaps people know what that is.

The Saturday night massacre is something that's commonly referenced in and around former president Richard Nixon when he, in the early seventies, asked his then attorney general to dispense of a special prosecutor. The attorney general said “no” and resigned. The then president then asked his deputy attorney general to do the same thing, and that person resigned, so it's commonly referred to as the “Saturday night massacre”. Anybody can look it up.

Having said that to the Clerk, I obviously was having thoughts about what was happening and the potential for direction coming to me from the Prime Minister and my having to consider resigning.

[Michael Cooper]

Then it was certainly a little more than—

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Mr. Cooper, last question.

[Michael Cooper]

I will just make the comment that it was a little more than the Clerk just checking in with you, as he characterized it.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

The Clerk was checking in with me on SNC and deferred prosecution agreements.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

We now go to the NDP for three minutes.

Mr. Angus.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Wilson-Raybould. I'm very honoured to be sitting at this table today, because what I feel we've witnessed is not politics; we've witnessed a lesson in integrity. I think the testimony you gave today will be studied in schools for decades to come, and Canada will be a better place for it. The greatest thing we can ask of any public official is to speak truth to power, and I really noticed that in your resignation statement.

I have a very short period for questions. I just want to make sure I understand the frame correctly. It seems that what we heard today is a sustained and constant attempt by very powerful actors in the Prime Minister’s Office who are obligated to uphold justice and the rule of law yet attempted to interfere with the practice of the rule of law. Would that be a correct assumption from the testimony you have provided to us?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thanks for the comments and the question. Again, I know that there was a consistent and sustained effort to attempt to politically interfere with my role as the Attorney General.

I really want to say this, and I'll be brief. I do not want members of this committee or Canadians to think that the integrity of our institutions has somehow evaporated. The integrity of our justice system, the integrity of the director of public prosecutions and prosecutors, is intact. So I don't want to create fear that this is not the case. It is incumbent upon all of us to uphold our institutions and to uphold the rule of law. That's why I'm here.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I thank you for that, because I was really shocked when I read the testimony that you provided recording...for Mr. Wernick, the Clerk of the Privy Council, who is obligated to be the non-partisan voice of the civil service. He said, “I think he”—that would be the Prime Minister—“is going to find a way to get it done, one way or another....he is in that kind of mood, and I wanted you to be aware of it.” Then you referenced the Richard Nixon firing of the special prosecutor as a side issue.

Would you take from this, that “he is in that kind of mood, and I wanted you to be aware of it”, that you were being given a direct threat regarding the Prime Minister?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I believe there were three occasions in that conversation where there was a veiled threat.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

I only have a few seconds left, but I have heard my Liberal colleagues today say: Why didn't you resign? Why didn't you raise this as though...it was your responsibility? And then why you did not get outside advice to help you change your mind?

I'm really pleased that you say that these were attempts to obstruct and to interfere with justice but that the justice system is intact.

My question to you is this. Are you worried that the Prime Minister's Office was seeing the role of the justice minister as a figurehead that could be moved around, could be changed or interfered with, based on the partisan or political needs of the moment?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm not going to speculate on the considerations in the Prime Minister's Office, or the opinions.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Fair enough.

I just want to say, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

You've exhausted your—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

—I just—

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Mr. Angus, you've exhausted—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

—I want to move a motion—

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Mr. Angus, you have exhausted your time.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

—that the committee calls on the Prime Minister—

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Mr. Angus, you have exhausted your time. You don't have the floor.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I'm moving a motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

I think I had passed on. What—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Sorry; I'm moving a motion, Chair.