Evidence of meeting #137 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Cooper  St. Albert—Edmonton, CPC
Michael Barrett  Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, CPC
Gerald Butts  As an Individual

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

That is not my testimony. My testimony is that, as I said at the outset, I have a very different version of events, and I will say that I am not going to cast aspersions on a former colleague.

I think that I tried to explain in—

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Just in fairness, I just want this on the record—

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

Let me finish my sentence—

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

But I have a right to ask, because—

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Mr. Angus, your preamble was a minute and a half. I'm just going to let the witness finish the answer.

Mr. Angus....

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON

Did she tell the truth, yes or no? That is the question. It's not whether you're trying to be mean to her. That is not the question.

If she told us the truth, then your testimony and the testimony and the credibility of the Prime Minister's Office is in question. That is the question today.

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

I believe that everything I have said to this committee today is the truth, and I believe I described the events as they happened.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather

Thank you very much.

We'll move back to Mr. Ehsassi. Mr. Ehsassi, you have six minutes.

March 6th, 2019 / 12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Now I'd be remiss if I didn't point to a third passage on page 67 of “Open and Accountable Government”.

The third passage reads, “Formal consultation may also be warranted in cases that are of significant public interest, which raise legal issues of national importance or which involve certain specialized areas of the law....”

Do you think in this particular instance it would have required that the Attorney General consult, perhaps, with the Department of Finance?

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

That sounds as if you're asking me to do a technical evaluation based on the meaning of the law.

I think a common sense approach to this is that you take all of the input from your colleagues, and if you think that the input isn't appropriate, you tell them it's inappropriate. If it gets to the point where you think it's as inappropriate as the former minister clearly now thinks it was, then you should inform the public at the time.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you for that.

We heard from Ms. Wilson-Raybould during her testimony that she first received a notice from DPP regarding SNC on September 4, while in Australia. She returned to Canada eight days later, on September 12, and by September 16 she had made up her mind.

In your opinion, would that have provided her enough time to do her due diligence, to consult with the various departments?

12:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

I think I covered that in my testimony, Mr. Ehsassi. It's a challenging explanation for the people whose jobs were at stake.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Absolutely.

You were explaining to us today that your understanding is that when the public prosecutor is considering a particular file, any time new evidence comes to light, there should be a consideration of the matter, that one has to look at it with fresh eyes.

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

That's correct. That's my understanding.

It's also my understanding that it's not possible to come to a final decision until the court process plays out and a verdict is rendered.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Are you concerned that she made her final decision before she actually consulted with the Prime Minister?

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

I think I have a lot of concerns about this, but I'm not sure I would agree with that characterization.

I think it was incumbent upon the people who were trying to put advice and evidence in front of the Attorney General to do so, and I think it was incumbent upon her to hear it.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Now perhaps I shouldn't ask you what your expectations would be of others. Perhaps I should turn to how you look at this particular issue.

Do you have any regrets as to how this issue was handled?

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

I like to look forward in life, Mr. Ehsassi. We're all human. We all make mistakes all the time. Part of improving your professional life and your personal relationships is to examine the mistakes.

On this case, I've looked at it really closely over the last couple of weeks. I firmly believe that nothing inappropriate occurred here and that nothing inappropriate was alleged to have occurred until after the cabinet shuffle—yes.

More broadly, there are other issues, but there are probably places, times and forums for those.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

In your opening statement you mentioned that you corresponded with Ms. Wilson-Raybould regularly. You expressed deep concern about what the minister was saying during some of those—

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

You mean following the cabinet shuffle?

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Yes, correct.

You've expressed concern about that. Can you share with us today what the minister said and how that led you to determine there was a breakdown in communications?

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

Yes. I think that part of her characterization of those conversations...and there were at least four or five of them, and they were long and they were personal and they reflected two people trying to deal with a very difficult issue.

There was a point where the minister asked me directly if her departure from the ministry of justice and the Attorney General had anything whatsoever to do with the SNC-Lavalin matter, and I said no.

I did say...I asked her in a surprised tone whether she was questioning the integrity of the Prime Minister. It wasn't an accusation and it wasn't a threat; it was genuine surprise that someone who I had spent so much time with and that the Prime Minister had spent so much time with could interpret the request, the move, in such a dark light, to be honest.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Lastly, you do indicate that the Prime Minister did offer her the portfolio of Indigenous Services.

12:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Gerald Butts

That's correct.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Why was that important to the Prime Minister and what did he have in mind when he offered her that portfolio?