Evidence of meeting #137 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:05 a.m.
Liberal
11:05 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Fair enough. That's helpful.
I know that the AG has a different standard when it comes to pressure.
Mr. Butts, on a matter of great importance that affects thousands of people, on which the AG must make a decision, in your experience what's the typical number of meetings that a PMO would have with an AG or their team?
11:05 a.m.
As an Individual
I say this with great appreciation for everybody involved. We're talking about people who had long-standing personal and professional relationships, and I seek to disparage none of them because I think it's hard enough to get people to contribute to public life in this country, and everybody involved has made great contributions.
This was a novel law. It was the first time it had ever been used, so we thought the bare minimum we needed to do in order to look people in the eye who stood to lose their jobs was to make sure we had a good reason and to build process around that. It's absolutely a bare minimum to get the best advice you can when a decision affects that many people. There's not much more to this than that, in my view, Mr. Boissonnault.
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Along that line, then, if you take a look at a file like TMX, if you take a look at this issue, if you take a look at even the Supreme Court reference that you alluded to, why were there only 10 meetings over four months on an issue this important?
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Okay.
Was there a coordinated effort within the PMO to try to get the former AG to change her mind on the SNC file?
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
One hundred per cent no—how can we believe that statement?
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Well, one would expect that, if such an effort existed, then I would have been aware of it, and I was not. And I know the people involved very well. Mathieu Bouchard and Elder Marques are incredibly accomplished lawyers with sterling reputations, and it is inconceivable to me that they would engage in this sort of behaviour.
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
I appreciate that.
Here is my final question. We've heard testimony and read media articles that imply there was something inappropriate about raising provincial elections. I know there's one coming up in Alberta, for example.
In your experience, in the context of intergovernmental affairs, how are electoral considerations addressed on such big government issues?
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Let me give you an example that is contemporaneous with the events you're describing.
It was becoming really clear as we approached the end of the NAFTA negotiations that whatever settlement we came to on dairy policy was going to have a really large impact on the Quebec election. That did not stop us from signing NAFTA.
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you. That concludes the first round.
Now we'll go to the second round of questions.
In the second round we have six minutes for the Liberals, six minutes for the Conservatives, six minutes for the Liberals, five minutes for the Conservatives and three minutes for the NDP.
We're going to start with Mr. Fraser.
March 6th, 2019 / 11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Butts, thank you so much for being here. It's good to see you. I want to say thank you as well for your public service. I know you commented on others who serve the Canadian government so well, but I think your long career of public service should be duly noted as well, and I want to thank you on behalf of all of us here.
I'm wondering if you would be interested in tabling some of the text messages you referred to in your statement.
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
My understanding—and I worked with counsel on getting access to all of the documents I needed for this presentation and conversation—is that it's not my decision to make any longer.
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay.
I want to follow up on a question that Mr. Boissonnault was asking you a moment ago regarding a coordinated effort in the PMO. Your answer was very clear. I just want to ask: Did you direct or even ever encourage anyone in the PMO to try to pressure the former attorney general to approve a remediation agreement?
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Absolutely not, and as I said before, I really don't have an opinion on what decision either the former or the current Attorney General should make, and I am quite happy that I am not in their shoes.
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
As well, to your knowledge, in the close working relationship you have with the Prime Minister, did the Prime Minister ever direct or encourage anyone in the Prime Minister's Office to try to pressure the former attorney general to approve a remediation agreement or anything else with the former attorney general?
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
I want to turn for a moment to the couple of meetings you mentioned in your statement. The first one was on December 5, when you had dinner with the former attorney general at the Chateau Laurier. You had said, I think, that November 26 was the date she had texted you—
11:10 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
—and said that she would like to have a conversation with you and that it was going to take longer than 10 minutes, and then later it got coordinated to be a dinner at the Chateau Laurier.
She mentioned in her statement that it was a meeting that you both had wanted. Is that fair to say, or would you say that it was her asking you for the meeting?
11:10 a.m.
As an Individual
Well, I'm not sure they're incompatible statements, to be honest. I certainly responded very quickly, and I always enjoyed meeting with Minister Wilson-Raybould. So it wasn't as if she had to drag me to the Chateau Laurier.
11:15 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
You mentioned, as well, that there were a number of items that were, I guess, discussed at that meeting, which would be in the normal course of things with the minister whom you were friends with and had a number of issues that you wanted to go through.
SNC-Lavalin came up in a brief discussion near the end of that conversation. Is that your recollection?