Evidence of meeting #137 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
It was indicated in the text messages from the chief of staff to the former attorney general that you said that there was no solution here that did not involve some interference.
What do you say about that?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I think I answered that question a little while ago, Mr. Fraser, but that is not what I said.
I do remember that part of the conversation, and I think this is the heart of the matter here—does asking for external advice constitute political interference? I think that by any reasonable definition of the term, it does not.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
With regard to Katie Telford, you were in the meeting, and Katie Telford had indicated about arranging op-eds. I know you touched on it earlier, but can you expand a little bit on your exact understanding of that comment that was made?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
Yes. It's not a sophisticated tool in politics to ask your supporters to support you, right? It's a common practice that's probably been around for as long as there have been op-eds that whatever position the government is taking or an opposition party is taking, they seek out supporters in the free press.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
I want to return for a moment to your opening statement. You mentioned that there seemed to have been a breakdown in the relationship with the former attorney general. Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion and when that happened?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
From my perspective, for most of the time we worked together, going way back to her nomination and the election campaign—which you will all remember was not a smooth sail across a calm sea—I felt like Ms. Wilson-Raybould and I could generally work things out.
I think that in the context of the cabinet shuffle, that became very difficult. I think that's when trust broke down.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you very much.
Now we go back to the Conservatives.
Go ahead, Ms. Raitt.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
I would like to move a motion, please, that the witness produce all communications, texts, emails and written notes between himself, Jody Wilson-Raybould, Mathieu Bouchard, Elder Marques, Katie Telford, David Lametti, Jessica Prince, Ben Chin, Bill Morneau and Justin Trudeau.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
May I ask a question?
Would you mind writing out the motion, allowing Mr. Cooper to ask the questions in the rest of your time, and then coming back to the motion when everybody can get a copy? I'll give you back the time to put forward the motion.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
I'm going to ask questions in this round right now, Mr. Chairman.
11:30 a.m.
Liberal
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Certainly, I'm fine with that.
I'll continue.
Mr. Butts, did you know that on September 17, Jody Wilson-Raybould indicated that she instructed her staff to ensure they had a very detailed chronology of all meetings and conversations about SNC-Lavalin and deferred prosecution agreements because she was worried about what was going to be happening in the coming months? Were you aware of that?
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Well, she did, which I found interesting.
We were talking about what the staff of the Prime Minister's Office were doing to try to get to the director of public prosecutions. The second type of legal opinion that was sought was different. This time, it was a legal opinion on the director's decision to not grant a deferred prosecution agreement.
Were you aware that Mr. Elder and Mr. Bouchard requested that?
11:30 a.m.
As an Individual
I'm not even sure I know what that means, Ms. Raitt, to be honest.
You are a lawyer, correct?
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
These are important issues, Mr. Butts. You're testifying here that you are the link between the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's Office, yet the Prime Minister's staff were clearly over the line of appropriateness. That's testimony from Jody Wilson-Raybould, and that's my assumption based upon the facts that she put forward.
At the end of the day, you are responsible for these matters, and your responsibility flows up to the Prime Minister.
11:30 a.m.
As an Individual
That is correct.
I am also testifying that if anyone crossed a line, it was the responsibility of the minister to inform somebody about that. I am presenting myself as the most likely person who would have been informed, and I was not.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
In her testimony, she indicated that she brought it up with you and said it was inappropriate. Your testimony is that you don't recall it that way.
11:30 a.m.
As an Individual
My testimony is that I recall a very different conversation, yes.
11:30 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
And that she did not tell you it was inappropriate for people to continuously ask her about her decision after she had made it?