Okay.
Evidence of meeting #137 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #137 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A video is available from Parliament.
11:20 a.m.
As an Individual
About this idea that someone tried to directly interfere with the DPP, on February 12, my understanding is that when making a public comment on another matter—which is the one that I think you were alluding to earlier and which we should not discuss here—the DPP said that there had been no political interference in that matter or in any other matter.
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Correct, but what I'm talking about, Mr. Butts, are the attempts to be political.
I'll bring you one more. Mathieu Bouchard and Elder Marques said, according to Jody Wilson-Raybould, that the individual Crown prosecutor wanted to negotiate an agreement, but the director did not. How would members of your PMO staff have knowledge of what a single Crown prosecutor would know or not know about a DPA?
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Okay.
As well, they indicated that the deputy minister of justice thought that she could get the Public Prosecution Service of Canada to say that “we think we should get...outside advice”. So that's the Prime Minister's Office, the justice minister and the justice deputy minister going directly to the director of public prosecutions. Would you agree that that's not acceptable?
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
11:20 a.m.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
Well, this is her testimony, and this is what I'm saying.
On September 19, both again raised the idea of an “informal reach out” this time to the director of public prosecutions. How is that acceptable as an indication from the Prime Minister's Office to suggest an “informal reach out” from the deputy, the AG or even a member of the deputy's staff? How is that acceptable when we know that the line between the Public Prosecution Service and the politics of this country is very clear?
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I agree that it's very clear. I just want to go back to the substance of my evidence that I'm providing here. I don't think.... I know the people involved. I've worked with them closely. I know the file a little bit. It just doesn't ring like something they would do on this or any other matter.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thanks very much.
Mr. Butts, I want to pick up from where I was earlier and go now to the meeting of December 18 that you had with Katie Telford and the former attorney general's chief of staff at the time. How commonplace would it be that you would have a meeting with a chief of staff regarding an important matter that was of concern at the time?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
Very. Very—we met with chiefs of staff all the time, both together and separately.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay.
How did that meeting actually come about? Who actually coordinated that meeting?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I don't recall. I don't recall.... As you say, my answer to your first question, Mr. Fraser, is that it was very commonplace for such meetings to happen. It wouldn't have been unusual. Particularly at that time of year, Ms. Telford and I tried to meet with chiefs of staff at the end of sessions to check in and see how things were going and that kind of thing.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Okay.
In her testimony, the former attorney general indicated that she had received a text message from her chief of staff shortly after the meeting, indicating that she was urgently summoned to the meeting.
Does that sound like a fair characterization of your meeting?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I can't think of a single instance in which Ms. Telford and I urgently summoned anyone, but as I said about my dinner with Ms. Wilson-Raybould, people can come away from the same experience with different impressions.
As I have said many times, as I'm sure you've heard me say in caucus at points, Mr. Fraser, that the longer we are all in these jobs, the more people see us as these jobs and not as people. I think that carries with it a responsibility to be conscious of power dynamics between people. I like to think—and nobody is perfect—that Ms. Telford and I were very conscious of that.
11:25 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Would you say that a fair characterization of the main tenor of that meeting on December 18 was in order to discuss retaining external counsel to give an opinion about the correctness of a DPA?
11:25 a.m.
As an Individual
I believe that's a fair characterization, but I can't be sure. I know that the biggest contentious issue that we were discussing with the Minister of Justice and Attorney General's office at that time was the directive on civil litigation matters involving indigenous people. There were concerns in different places with different people and different ministries, and most of the discussions that I recall between our office and hers at that point in time were about that subject. I'm sure that came up as well.
