Evidence of meeting #137 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was meeting.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Lisa Raitt Conservative Milton, ON
As a lawyer, I give due regard to the decision-making of the Attorney General.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you very much. I always like exchanges between Cape Bretoners.
We'll now move to an Edmontonian, Mr. Boissonnault.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Thanks, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Butts, thank you for joining us today.
We've heard from Canadians, and they can't help but draw a negative inference from your decision to step down as principal secretary.
Mr. Butts, if you did nothing wrong, why did you resign?
As an Individual
I believe I covered that in my opening statement, Mr. Boissonnault, and I also covered it in my public statement. I think I was put in a position where I had to ask my colleagues to fight another colleague over accusations a colleague was making, and I think that put the Prime Minister in an impossible position, given the nature of our friendship.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
In your statement following your resignation, and today, you categorically denied the accusation that you or anyone else in the PMO pressured the former attorney general, yet we've heard her testimony very clearly at this committee alleging otherwise. Why should Canadians believe your version of the facts?
As an Individual
Well, as I said to Ms. Raitt, Mr. Boissonnault, I'm not here to cast aspersions on anyone or to suggest that anybody is deliberately misleading anyone else. I do believe that it is possible for people to draw different conclusions from the same experience. All I'm doing here is representing to you, to the best of my ability, the truth as I see it and the events as they occurred. I supplied some context in terms of contemporaneous messaging between me and the former attorney general.
I'll also say this. These are really important jobs, but at the end of the day, we're all people. When trust breaks down among people, I think it's easy to see things that have already happened in a different light.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you.
In your statement, you said that it was important that the former AG be able to provide a rationale for not giving a remediation agreement to SNC-Lavalin. In your mind, why was it important that she be able to give a rationale for not giving a remediation agreement?
As an Individual
A couple of things. One is that the legalities, the law on this, are very fresh. We thought it would be an appropriate step to get seasoned, eminent advice from a jurist that would help flesh out the process around the law. That's all we were trying to do. There was nobody trying to make the AG make one decision or another.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
In your testimony today, as I understand it, your discussion with the former AG was about that need for a rationale. That was the substance.
As an Individual
Yes, the discussion I had with the AG was literally, as I recall it, as we were about to get up from the table after two hours of talking about a bunch of other things. But yes, that's what it was about.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
That's helpful.
Ms. Wilson-Raybould shared her perspective that it was appropriate for colleagues to draw her attention to important policy considerations related to this issue, as you've done today, related to jobs. Yet when this pressure veered into the realm of provincial politics, she then deemed it inappropriate.
Do you believe that successive meetings and raising such issues was appropriate?
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
I mean members of the PMO talking about the fact that provincial politics are...that there's an election on the horizon.
As an Individual
I'm not going to pass judgment on what anyone else did, Randy—Mr. Boissonnault, excuse me.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Do you believe it was appropriate for people to speak with her at all after she said that her decision was final on this matter?
As an Individual
I do not recall, as I said in my opening statement, that she ever said that. My understanding of the law—and I will say to you what I said to Ms. Prince on December 18 or whenever that was: I'm not a lawyer, so I'm always very hesitant to get into detailed discussions of the law. That is particularly true in my interactions with the Attorney General. I don't know what I can say on that, Mr. Boissonnault.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
No, that's fair.
In your role as the former principal secretary, you would have been privy to many important meetings. I'm interested in knowing whether you ever witnessed inappropriate pressure on the former attorney general.
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Would you have raised the issue with the Prime Minister had you ever witnessed a colleague inappropriately pressuring the former attorney general?
Liberal
Randy Boissonnault Liberal Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you for that.
We heard from Michael Wernick's testimony that while there may have been pressure, none of it was inappropriate, undue or, I think he said, unlawful advocacy. He stated that Canadians ought not to be worried about the rule of law in this country.
Are you worried about the rule of law in Canada?
As an Individual
Why? This is one of the things that I think are really important to keep in mind. I've seen a lot of things over the last three and a half years, interfaces with other governments, in other countries; and in a lot of places, public institutions are faltering and failing. They're faltering and failing in countries that look just like ours.
Canadians should have faith in their public institutions and they should have faith in their public institutions, because they work. I have absolute confidence in this committee, in Parliament, in the independence of the justice system, in the professional public service, and in the powers of the Attorney General's office, and I want to say that Canadians should feel protected by the powers and conventions governing the relationships between these offices, not by the presence of any individual at any given time.