Justice Committee on May 17th, 2016

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

The consequence of that is kids will still get criminal records, or records that will affect their employment and their ability to travel and so forth, before your government gets its consultations completed. Their lives will continue to be dramatically affected by something that will be perfectly legal a year from now. That's the consequence of what you're saying.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

The reality is that we need to ensure that we take consideration of all issues that come before us, in terms of ensuring the safety of products that are available and ensuring that we work on the health-related aspects and public safety aspects. Your questioning and other questioning highlight the need to ensure that we move as quickly as we can on this and to ensure that we as parliamentarians and as a government move forward and put this complex regime in place, and that we do it right.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Right.

Minister, on April 28 I was in Edmonton. I met the president and CEO of Legal Aid Alberta. She said that the situation for funding is desperate. She told me that the federal funding of $10.4 million, of their total $68.5-million budget, has been static for eight or nine years despite the increasing population in that very young province, despite the urban indigenous population growth, and despite the Daniels case and its impact. They're calling out desperately for federal help.

I note that you also have under way an evaluation of the legal aid program. It started in 2015 and is expected to be completed in October 2016. A particular irritant is that they only get $0.5 million a year for immigration, an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction. They spend way more of their own funds for that.

We're talking about access to justice in this committee. Can you give any comfort to Legal Aid Alberta and other legal aid plans that help is on the way?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Without question, provinces and territories have not seen an increase in legal aid funding since 2003. I'm very pleased that in our budget, $88 million has been allocated to support legal aid. I have met with my counterparts in the provinces and territories, and understand the need in each of those provinces and territories, including Alberta.

We are in the process of working with the provinces and territories to see how the monies can be best allocated, having regard to the increase in population, as you mentioned, but also, and this has come out very loudly and clearly from provinces and territories who have, with limited monies for legal aid, become very innovative in terms of their programming—and that's not to say there isn't a need for additional monies—ensuring that we are working with the provinces and territories on these innovations that they have, and ensuring that we provide the necessary resources to the provinces and territories, including Alberta.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Do I have more time, Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

You're out of time, Mr. Rankin, but you'll get another round.

[Murray Rankin, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

By the way, we are doing a review of legal aid after we finish our court challenges study and the access to justice study. We'll have a chance to talk about that.

Mr. McKinnon.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

Minister, thank you for coming.

I'd like to talk about the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples in our corrections system. Given that the government has indicated its intent to extend the aboriginal justice strategy, can you tell me the ways in which the department is committed to ensuring that the Gladue provisions are effectively applied?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

In terms of our review of all of our programming and finding and identifying measurables to see if we're being successful, I think that the overrepresentation of indigenous peoples in the criminal justice system is a key measurable. Obviously the objective is to reduce that number. We will be looking at real representation of indigenous peoples and their interaction with the criminal justice system in our broad review of that system, including sentencing.

In terms of the aboriginal justice strategy, we are supporting many initiatives under that strategy. Just in terms of some statistics, with respect to the aboriginal justice strategy, 89% of the program participants successfully completed the aboriginal justice strategy program and therefore were not incarcerated for the offence. Of the program participants, 68% had not re-offended eight years following participation in the aboriginal justice strategy.

I think there are many initiatives in indigenous communities in various areas of the country that have presented substantive options for restorative justice, for preventative justice, for indigenous peoples in the country. All of these initiatives will be included in our broad review of the criminal justice system. At the same time, initiatives like the native court worker program will also assist in this regard.

Broadly speaking our government is committed to a nation-to-nation relationship with indigenous peoples and looking at various mechanisms and means to embark on, or go down a path of, true reconciliation. All of this together will contribute to improving, ultimately, the lives of indigenous Canadians and working in partnership with them on solutions that work. That includes ensuring that the Gladue principles are applied when an indigenous person is sentenced, that those measures are in place, and that we ensure that we continue to support initiatives that reflect the realities of an individual's circumstances, and cultural appropriateness for indigenous offenders.

[Ron McKinnon, Liberal, Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC]

I should have asked this first. Thirteen years after Gladue in R. v. Ipeelee, the Supreme Court of Canada revisited the decision and found that the statistics indicate that the overrepresentation and alienation of aboriginal peoples in the criminal justice system has only worsened. Do you have any thoughts on why that might be? Is it because the Gladue principle is not being applied effectively or are there other factors at play here?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I think there are many reasons why the number of indigenous people in the criminal justice system is not decreasing. Our government is committed to ensuring that we build and foster a substantial new relationship with indigenous peoples that's based on a nation-to-nation relationship, and that we identify and build a reconciliation framework that takes into account all of the various tools that would assist in defining our relationship with indigenous peoples. We support those initiatives that specifically involve working in partnership whereby indigenous peoples put forward solutions to assist in moving forward with jurisdiction or moving forward with programs and services to ultimately improve their communities.

I think in terms of looking at the criminal justice system, there are ways that we can improve the criminal justice system as it respects or engages with indigenous peoples. This speaks to the work we're doing on the inquiry into murdered and missing indigenous women. It speaks to the need for us to work more broadly to look at the root causes of the situation of indigenous people. For indigenous people, and I think in general, there are many reasons people find themselves in the criminal justice system, root causes such as marginalization, poverty, lack of housing, or lack of education. We need to ensure that we're addressing the root causes of the existence of the situation. With respect to indigenous peoples, we are committed to working in partnership to address those issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

We're now going to go to the second round of questions. We have another 25 minutes with the minister, because she has to leave at 9:30. For the second round I would ask everyone to take five minutes instead of six minutes. The second round goes Liberal, Conservative, Liberal, Conservative, NDP.

We'll go to Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Minister, for coming today. It's definitely appreciated.

I have a couple of questions. The first pertains to your mandate letter. Last month I did a night shift ride with the police in my riding. One thing I realized over the course of the night was that one in three calls for 911 in the local area dealt mainly with mental illness. I see in your mandate letter that you are seized with doing something about the problem that we have with mental illness, specifically with respect to our justice system. I wonder if you could shed some light on what kind of initiatives the Department of Justice will be taking in that respect.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm glad to hear that you went on a ride-along. It's an important learning experience for many people.

In terms of mental illness, I'm working with the Minister of Public Safety, looking at the recommendations that came out of the inquest into Ashley Smith's death. Certainly this deals with solitary confinement, but it also speaks to mental illness. We are working jointly to look at those particular recommendations.

It also speaks to the varying reasons why people present themselves in the criminal justice system generally, whether it be for poverty or marginalization, as we talked about, or people who are suffering from addictions or mental illness. We have to better identify the reasons why people are in this situation and to work with my colleagues across the provinces and territories to ensure that we identify those reasons. We also have to work in a community approach to develop or create and encourage those off-ramps so that we can ensure that we're addressing the specific circumstances of why an individual comes into the justice system—and so, in the case of mental illness, that we provide the necessary supports and services. That is definitely something that we're committed to moving forward on, and I'm working with my ministerial colleagues who are directly impacted and have responsibilities in these areas.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you for that. I'm looking forward to those solutions.

As you may know, over the past many weeks, we've been hearing witness testimony about the court challenges program and seeing how we can use the $5 million per year budget that has been allotted for this program. We will be coming up with recommendations very soon. We're hoping that you and the department will take our recommendations into account when you develop this program. I wonder if you could commit to reviewing our recommendations.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

As you pointed out, this was a commitment in both my mandate letter and that of the Minister of Canadian Heritage. We're working collaboratively on the court challenges program. I know that officials from our department appeared before this committee, and I would commend the study that this committee is undertaking with respect to that program.

I live by the philosophy that to achieve those commitments and to do the best job we can in doing so, we need to embrace the expertise and diversity of opinions that exist around this committee table and across the country. I very much look forward to the recommendations this committee will bring on the court challenges program and how we can ensure that the monies that are being allocated to that program are used most effectively. I welcome those recommendations as well as other recommendations and studies the committee wants to undertake.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Mr. Cooper.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Minister, and welcome back to the committee. I appreciated your presentation this morning.

I have a couple of questions. The first issue I want to raise is one I have raised before in the House of Commons, and that is judges. Our courts face a serious backlog. That's not new, but I think there would be agreement that it is has worsened as a result of the large number of judicial vacancies. At this time it looks as if there are at least 46 vacancies across Canada, and yet not one judge has been appointed.

Yesterday in response to a question that I asked you in the House of Commons, you referred to short-term procedures that were in place to deal with this. I was wondering what those short-term procedures are.

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Cooper. I know that you will continue to ask me questions about judges until judges are in place.

As I said yesterday and will say today, and as you point out, there are a substantial number of vacancies across the country in our courts. In terms of a comprehensive review of how judges are appointed, we will ensure in my review of the appointment process that we not only look to merit but also at diversity, which is part of the broader process of appointments that I am committed to undertaking. That work is under way.

In terms of the shorter appointment process—and I'm nor sure “appointment process” is necessarily accurate.... I may have said that yesterday in the House, but I know in speaking with chief justices across the country that there are urgencies. All appointments are urgent, but there are some that need to be filled sooner than those in the broader appointment process. In terms of that shorter appointment process, again, I am engaged and have spoken to chief justices across the country. I know there are lists of potential justices that can be drawn from, and we're reviewing those lists very closely, ensuring that we reach out to and engage with stakeholders, including the judiciary, to fill those more urgent positions in the short term.

Those appointments will be coming as soon as possible, ensuring that we have done our due diligence in reviewing those names.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Minister. It certainly seems that it has become quite urgent when we see, for example, in Alberta a serious fraud case thrown out. It looks as if this week perhaps two sexual assault cases may be thrown out for delay, so I would reiterate that the appointments are urgently needed now, but I appreciate the answer.

Turning to a different topic with the remaining time I have, the June 6 deadline that the Supreme Court issued to the stay on the declaration of constitutional invalidity is coming up. Obviously, Bill C-14 is moving forward in the House of Commons, but in conversations I have had with Senate colleagues, there seems to be a general consensus that the legislation may not get through the Senate by the June 6 deadline.

In that scenario, what steps is the federal government going to take? What are you going to do as minister? Would you, for example, consider bringing forward an application to the Supreme Court for a short-term extension to allow sufficient time to make sure that legislation can get passed before we end up in a situation where there could be a vacuum with no law and no certainty for physicians, for patients, and no safeguards for the vulnerable?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Again, I would look around the table and thank all members of this committee for the substantive discussions that have been had around Bill C-14 on medical assistance in dying.

To your question, the June 6 deadline of the Supreme Court of Canada is incredibly important, and our government is committed to doing everything we can to meet that deadline, recognizing where the proposed legislation is within the House of Commons, acknowledging the substantive work that senators have done in their pre-study phase, and recognizing the work that they will continue to do in considering Bill C-14. I would stress, again, the importance of meeting the June 6 deadline. We are doing everything we can to ensure that is the case. Not meeting the June 6 deadline, as you rightfully point out, would leave a vacuum in terms of the law, in terms of the application of medical assistance in dying in this country, with regard to eligibility. The court application process for exemptions would no longer exist. There would be no safeguards in place. Medical practitioners would have uncertainty around how the Carter ruling would be applied, and I think, further to that, in terms of patients who want to access medical assistance in dying, they would be limited in doing so, given the uncertainty that would exist. As you know, in this country, the only jurisdiction that has a law around assistance in dying is Quebec, so I am very committed to ensuring that we do everything we can to meet that June 6 deadline.

[The Chair, Liberal, Anthony Housefather]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Hussen.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Good morning, Minister. I want to thank you for coming and addressing the committee.

My question has to do with bail, with remand custody. There has been an increase in the number of individuals in remand custody over the years. The numbers have gone up and I can attest to that in my practice as a criminal defence lawyer over the years. Indeed, the numbers presented to the committee in the beginning by the Department of Justice officials showed an increase in the percentage of individuals who are in custody.

What are the department's plans to address that, and has any money been set aside to address the increasing numbers of people who are in remand custody?

[Jody Wilson-Raybould, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Certainly, reviewing bail and the regime will be part of our overall review of the criminal justice system. We are in the process of and will continue undertaking a comprehensive review of the realities in terms of remand, in terms of bail. A broad review has not been done since 1972, and we're committed to engaging with the provinces and the territories on this.

We would look to members of this committee, but also to experts and impacted persons in the defence bar with respect to crown counsel, to understand the issues and to respond accordingly and to renovate the bail system in this country. That's a commitment we've made.