Evidence of meeting #29 for Justice and Human Rights in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was test.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
This is my final question.
The one manufacturer you mentioned stated that passive works best at a range of two inches. As technology progresses, would you say it's possible that a manufacturer could come out with a passive that tests best at 20 inches?
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
I would be surprised at that.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
Let me reword that—not “best at”, but is still highly accurate at 10 inches or 20 inches.
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
Given the ability for alcohol molecules, which are extremely small, to disseminate into areas where there is no alcohol, the further you go back, the greater the chance of the alcohol dissipating. It would be surprising to me that you could get an accurate result further back than even the six inches suggested.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Gagan Sikand Liberal Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
It's not necessarily the concentration but the presence at that distance. Does it vary that much between 2 and 10 inches?
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
It would depend on the volume it's within.
Alcohol will distribute or diffuse into the space where there's no.... It goes from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration. It diffuses very rapidly. The larger the area for diffusion, the greater the chance of the alcohol falling below a detectable level, for any device.
I seriously doubt that anyone would want to have a device that could be used two feet away from someone. There's just far too much that can happen in that two feet.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Anthony Housefather
Thank you very much, Mr. Sikand.
We're going to the second round now.
Go ahead, Mr. Fraser.
October 20th, 2016 / 11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here, Mr. Mayers. I appreciate your contributions.
How much time does it take for the passive detection on the device that you showed us a moment ago to give a reading?
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
Almost immediately, if it's a strong sample.
Let me back up. The higher the concentration of alcohol, the longer it takes for the fuel cell to actually process all of the alcohol.
I don't propose to do what I'm going to do later tonight and lecture in the way that I'll be lecturing my fourth-year students. However, the process is that alcohol is collected and then broken down into component parts that produce electrons. The electrons are then changed to a voltage that is proportional to the amount of alcohol there. The larger the amount of alcohol, the longer it takes to do that, so a very high concentration takes a little bit longer to process than a lower concentration.
All that being said, it's a very rapid process.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
You said you had two different machines. We saw one. Are there two?
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
I have two. That's correct.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Can we see the other one? They both have passive detection ability, correct?
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
Yes, they do. There are different ways to access the passive function, but they both can be used passively.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Do they work similarly with regard to the technology of detecting alcohol, and the quickness of detection?
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
They both use fuel cell technology. Neither one of them is going to allow me to have the proprietary formula for their fuel cells, but they do both work on a fuel cell technology. They are both rapid in their response.
11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Is it your understanding that the device that's being talked about for the purposes of this bill would be similar, or do you not know?
11:40 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
I hesitate to call it “a” device because there are multiple devices.
I would support devices that use fuel cell technology. There are devices out there that use semiconductor technology, and the semiconductor technology tends to be a lot less.... It used to be, anyway; maybe it's improved. In years past, semiconductor technology was subject to fluctuations in accuracy because of the calibration of these devices, and a lack of keeping them calibrated.
These devices that we're familiar with, if used properly, will give you accurate and reliable results—at least, inasmuch as I know—as approved screening devices. I would expect it to be the same with the passive detection, but we have yet to test that.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
Are the passive functions on devices like those you have there—those tools—not utilized then in Canada right now, or do they just use those machines as ASDs, alcohol screening devices?
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
These are just currently used, to the best of my knowledge, as ASDs.
In order to get this device, the one from Dräger Canada, into a passive mode, you have to get into the administrator's second-level menu, which is password protected. With the greatest respect to all of our road officers, they can't get access to that, because there's a lot of stuff that can go wrong if they get access to that second menu.
That said, once programmed, it can be used passively or as an approved screening device. With this device, you access the passive function through a menu. The officers can access it, turn it into a passive device, use it as a passive device, and then switch it at roadside themselves to use as an approved screening device.
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
Yes, it will give you.... There are no numbers involved here. One indicates alcohol, and one indicates alcohol not detected. I'd have to actually look up the screen messages, but it is a binary yes-or-no answer.
11:45 a.m.
Liberal
Colin Fraser Liberal West Nova, NS
I suppose it could be calibrated, but there would be some tolerance for not picking up any remote possibility of having alcohol in the system. For example, if it's many hours later and there was a very minor amount, or if it was from some type of food that had a minor amount of alcohol, it would have tolerance to that.
11:45 a.m.
Chair, Alcohol Test Committee, Canadian Society of Forensic Science
Yes. They have tolerances built in as approved screening devices.