Justice Committee on Oct. 29th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I call the meeting to order.

Thank you, Mr. Clerk, and to all of the wonderful support staff who make sure these meetings go as smoothly as possible.

Thank you, committee members, for logging in on time, and for your patience.

I know, Mr. Garrison, you're in a time zone where I wouldn't be awake, so I appreciate your tenacity in making sure that we're doing the things that Canadians expect us to do.

Welcome to the third meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Justice and Human Rights.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of September 23, 2020. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person who is speaking, instead of the whole room.

I understand that Mr. Zuberi is in person today, so welcome to the committee room, Mr. Zuberi.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I'd like to outline a few rules. Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of the floor, English or French. For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is there. Just keep in mind to take precautions with health protocols and masking.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. For those participating virtually, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. I cannot enough stress the importance of unmuting yourself before you start speaking, because if you don't unmute yourself, we won't be able to hear you. I know that's something we often forget to do, myself included. Those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer.

I remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly to allow time for interpretation. When you are not speaking, please make sure that you are on mute.

With regard to the speaking list and the order of questions, we have canvassed all of the parties, so I know in advance who is speaking at what time, but I will do my best, and the clerk will do his best, and together we'll make sure that everybody gets the equitable time we've agreed to beforehand.

There are a number of things I want to clarify before we get going, and I introduce our witnesses who are here today.

At our last meeting we had talked about the supplementary estimates. I hadn't realized that it would be very short notice for the agencies that are directly involved with the supplementary estimates, and that they would not be able to appear. For example, the Canadian Human Rights Commission is not able to appear today.

We know that the minister is not able to speak to the supplementaries, whereas he is able to speak to the main estimates. I will leave it to the committee to decide if we would like to defer the supplementary estimates to a later time, so that we can hear from the relevant agencies before voting on them, or we can go ahead and vote on them today as a committee.

Just give me a thumbs up or a thumbs down for either way. If you're okay with voting on the supplementaries today, without hearing from the Canadian Human Rights Commission, give me a thumbs up. If you would like to hear from the Human Rights Commission, give me a thumbs down. I see there is consensus to vote on the supplementaries today, without hearing from the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

Today we are joined by the Honourable David Lametti, Minister of Justice and Attorney General.

We also have with us Nathalie Drouin, deputy minister of justice and deputy attorney general of Canada; François Daigle, associate deputy minister; and Bill Kroll, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister.

Welcome to the 2020 justice committee to speak about the main estimates.

Mr. Lametti, you have seven and a half minutes.

[David Lametti, Liberal, Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada]

Thank you, Madam Chair, for the invitation to speak to the committee as it studies the 2020-21 main estimates for the Department of Justice.

I would first like to acknowledge that I am joining you today from my office in the Department of Justice, which sits on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

As the chair has mentioned, I am joined today by Nathalie Drouin, deputy minister; François Daigle, associate deputy minister; and Bill Kroll, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister. I would be remiss if I didn't also salute the presence of my very able parliamentary secretary, Arif Virani. I have so much confidence in Arif that if a mistake is made, it is actually his fault. I want you all to know that for the record.

As we deal with both a global pandemic and calls for major social changes, the Department of Justice Canada's work to promote and maintain a fair, transparent and accessible justice system becomes even more critical.

I'm proud to note that the department has shown great resilience and determination in the face of obstacles and delays during the pandemic, finding ways to work together and push ahead on key policy and legislative files.

We have moved rapidly to reintroduce important legislation regarding medical assistance in dying, banning conversion therapy and ensuring that judges hearing sexual assault matters will have the necessary training in sexual assault law and social context.

We also intend to fulfill our pledge to introduce legislation this year to implement the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

In many respects, the pandemic has served to highlight what we already knew. For millions of people in our country and around the globe, the pandemic has added overwhelming obstacles to those who must already deal with barriers. Those facing low incomes, underemployment, intimate partner violence, discrimination and other challenges have felt the full brunt of the crisis. This trauma echoes in every region of the country, particularly in remote and indigenous communities.

It is very important to me that we work to ensure that all Canadians can have confidence in our justice system. This work has begun, but I acknowledge there is much more work to do.

Our government has brought forward a variety of important measures to blunt the effects of the pandemic, to address social inequalities and to support our most vulnerable citizens.

As one example, I was pleased to announce recently that our government is providing funding of almost $364,000 to support five child advocacy centres and child and youth advocacy centres in Ontario, to help ensure delivery of services during the pandemic.

The centres play an essential role in this province's victim services. They provide immeasurable support and comfort for children, youth and their families who are dealing with abuse or violence. It is no surprise that the COVID-19 pandemic has had an impact on the ability of these centres to help young victims and their families, this at a time when the centres are needed more than ever.

The announced funding will provide urgently needed resources to ensure these centres can provide services that meet public health guidelines and restrictions.

This is just one of the many ways we are helping vulnerable Canadians in this time of social, economic and health crisis. We are hearing ever-louder calls to make our justice system better serve indigenous, Black, racialized, LGBTQ2 and other communities, and to promote fair access to justice for all. Committee members will hear these voices and these priorities echoed within financial details of the 2020-21 main estimates.

I will now turn to the overview. The Department of Justice has a total budgetary authority of $769.02 million through the 2020-21 main estimates, an increase of $24.5 million from the previous fiscal year. This funding will go towards key priorities that help to strengthen our justice system and ensure it is fair and accessible for everyone. Allow me to highlight a couple of key areas.

One example of how we are helping to protect Canadians' rights and increase access to justice is by providing legal support and awareness on sexual harassment in the workplace. In budget 2018 our government committed $50.4 million over five years towards actions to eliminate gender-based violence and harassment. The 2020-21 main estimates include $10.58 million to help ensure that workers are able to work in an environment free from harassment and fear.

Through the department's legal aid program and the justice partnership and innovation program, JPIP, we will boost legal aid and support for workers who experience sexual harassment in the workplace, and support the ongoing development of a pan-Canadian outreach program to make sure workers understand what their rights are and how they can find help.

Access to a fair and equitable justice system is a core part of reconciliation and our work to build a strong, respectful relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous people in our country. Budget 2019 included $10 million over five years to implement call to action 50 of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to support indigenous law initiatives across Canada. This is a vital part of building stronger indigenous governance and healthy communities. The 2020-21 main estimates include $2 million for Justice Canada to support the development, use and understanding of indigenous laws and access to justice in accordance with the unique cultures of indigenous peoples in Canada.

That concludes my remarks.

Thank you for the opportunity to talk about how we are working to make our justice system stronger, more resilient and more people-centred for a better Canada. I am now happy to take any questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much for that, Minister Lametti.

We are now going to the Conservative side.

Mr. Moore, you have six minutes for your round of questions, starting now.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today at our committee. It's good to see you again, even if it is virtually.

Minister, an issue that I've been raising and have raised with you for some time has been that, obviously, the impact of COVID-19 has altered significantly the financial estimates for the government. One issue that we've been raising is the concern with the growing backlog in the courts, both related to the COVID shutdown but also to vacancies within the judiciary.

Through you, Chair, can the minister inform the committee how the government is going to respond to this and what conversations the minister has had with the provinces over the past number of months? I want to reference specifically Ches Crosbie, the leader of the opposition in Newfoundland and Labrador, who has raised concerns in his province. There are four vacancies on the bench and that is delaying justice in that province. I'd like to get the minister's comments on that, the delay in the justice system.

Thank you.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thanks very much, Mr. Moore, for your question—“Rob”, if I may. It's a great question and an important one.

Throughout the pandemic I've pretty much been in constant touch with my provincial and territorial counterparts. We've had a number of FPT calls as a reaction to COVID-19. I have also, with the Chief Justice of Canada, co-chaired an action committee with a number of chief magistrates across Canada to discuss, implement and suggest best practices for courts in reacting to the pandemic, both in hearing cases and parts of cases at a distance, but also in doing so safely when it's done physically.

We have, I think, done a very good job of filling court vacancies and continue to do so expeditiously. I think we're at a pretty good point.

The Newfoundland and Labrador question is a particular one. We have just re-composed the judicial appointments committee, and they are now evaluating files. We should be able to move to fill those four vacancies in short order. The delay was caused by the transition in the judicial appointments committee. Now that it's up and doing its work again evaluating files, there will be a pool of candidates who can then move on to the next stage.

We hope that will be done very shortly. You're correct to raise the issue, as was Ches Crosbie. Believe me, it was on my radar screen as well as on the radar screen of our team. I think we now have the JAC up and functioning again.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, Minister. In my experience, the judicial advisory committees create a pool of eligible lawyers to be appointed to the judiciary. I know that in the past there was always a pool available, so it concerns me that the judicial advisory committee would have to be reconstituted in order to create a new pool, when I suspect there are a number of eligible people who could have been appointed already.

Moving on, under the Jordan decision, as you are well aware, the court ruled on what is deemed to be a reasonable time for access to a trial. If those charged do not receive a trial within the time prescribed in that decision, there is a risk of their case being thrown out. Obviously this situation creates great concern in the COVID-19 context.

The backlog in the courts is likely to have a long-lasting impact on the operations of our courts. I would like your comments on how you think these delays could impact it, with regard to the Jordan decision.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

This is a highly relevant and good question, Rob, under the circumstances.

The Jordan decision itself is something we're watching closely with my provincial and territorial counterparts, as well as with the administrators—in particular the chief justices—of the justice system across Canada.

There is a safety valve mechanism within the Jordan decision itself, because the Jordan decision makes an exception for exceptional circumstances. I think that by anyone's definition, these are exceptional circumstances. We're pretty confident that judges will still rule.

That said, we are presently considering amendments to the Criminal Code that have been suggested by my provincial and territorial counterparts to help accelerate parts of the system. We're watching carefully to see whether we need to intervene with a legislative solution or perhaps with an intervention in front of the courts. For the time being we don't feel that is necessary, but this is a situation that we're monitoring very closely.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you, minister. Finally—

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I'm sorry, Mr. Moore, you have eight seconds left.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Eight seconds?

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Yes.

[Rob Moore, Conservative, Fundy Royal, NB]

Okay.

Thanks for appearing. We'll look forward to the next round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

I have Mr. Kelloway next for six minutes.

Please go ahead, Mr. Kelloway.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Colleagues, staff and minister, it's great to see you here this morning and this afternoon, depending upon where you're doing the Zoom.

Madam Chair, in Cape Breton—Canso I proudly work with six first nations communities. I'm in regular communication with the chiefs and have been throughout the pandemic. Actually, over the past 23 years I've been working with first nations communities. In particular, what I've been hearing is that indigenous communities are happy with the support from the federal government to help them tame the spread of COVID-19.

This minister and many colleagues have been committed to walking the path of reconciliation with indigenous peoples. There has definitely been a focus on implementing commitments made in 2019. The indigenous communities in my riding are extremely grateful for this.

I am hoping to hear what the minister has to say about his commitment to introduce the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and when we can expect that legislation. I believe the minister spoke a little to this in his opening statement, but I'm wondering whether we could unpack it a little more.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

I'd like to thank you, honourable member, for your question.

As you know, we're committed to advancing the rights of first nations, Inuit and Métis people across Canada and to really, as you have said, walk the path of reconciliation together. Part of that commitment is a commitment I mentioned, which you've just repeated, that by the end of 2020 we will introduce legislation on implementing the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, UNDRIP, or I prefer to call it just “the declaration”. That commitment was reiterated in the throne speech.

We're working very hard right now with national indigenous organizations, the national leadership as well as other levels of leadership across Canada, to best map a path forward and to see what we can do. We're using the old Bill C-262 as a base and seeing what we can improve now before implementing it. We're going to continue to work closely in partnership. We're also reaching out to other industry stakeholders just to reassure them that this is something that will help with resource development moving forward.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

I have a second question. It relates to my previous life as someone who has worked with youth in the community.

I know that supporting victims of crime is a priority for our government and for the minister. It's also important to note the specific needs of children who are victims of crime. Just last week, two masked intruders invaded a home in my riding with a loaded shotgun and the only person in the home was a 14-year-old girl. As we know, this is a frightening reality for many Canadians.

I wonder whether the minister could discuss what we're doing to support children who are victims of crime.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Again, Mike, thanks for that very important question.

We're doing a great deal to help victims of crime. Particularly vulnerable are children, but in particular children who are in remote rural areas of Canada. We have a particular focus on human trafficking and intimate partner violence or family violence.

Through our strategic aid fund for victims, which is a federal initiative, we're trying to encourage new approaches through organizations on the ground in order to provide service, increased capacity and help in the establishment of help and aid networks.

One of the things I would point to is the support for child advocacy centres across Canada, CACs. In my remarks, I mentioned ones in Ontario, but we have been doing this across Canada. I visited a number of CACs across Canada. They're 360-degree wraparound services that are multidisciplinary, in which a child isn't retraumatized, his or her family is supported throughout, and police officers who interview do so in a non-confrontational setting, not in uniform, and it's taped so that the kids never have to be interviewed twice and their testimony can be used further down the road.

We're trying to support a number of these types of initiatives that represent best practices, but also to really help victims a great deal.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Minister, it looks as though I have one minute left.

Annie Daisley is an advocate for first nation women in Nova Scotia. She's actually the new chief of the community of We'koqma'q, and I've worked with her quite a lot in the past year. Building on a theme of reconciliation, I'm interested in your thoughts on what more we could be doing with respect to missing and murdered indigenous women.

We have 30 seconds left.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Obviously, we need to move on implementing the report. I know that our colleague Carolyn Bennett is working on an action plan, developed with first nations leadership, in particular female leadership, amongst indigenous peoples. That really is the first step in the road we walk together, but we really do need to implement those various recommendations.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Iqra Khalid]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

Mr. Fortin, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome, Minister. I'm glad to see you this morning.

I'm especially interested in the estimates as they relate to the Office of the Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs. Two of the office's core responsibilities caught my eye, first, safeguarding the independence of the judiciary and, second, delivering the judges' language training program.

I'll start by asking about the judiciary's independence. As far as the appointment process goes, can you tell me what portion of the estimates is actually for the judge selection process? To be clear, I'm referring to federal courts.

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Fortin. It's always a pleasure to have these kinds of conversations with you.

As far as the appointment process is concerned, costs are associated with the judicial advisory committees, or JACs. The expenses incurred by JAC members represent a cost.

In terms of selection, my ministerial office, here, on Parliament Hill, is responsible. The costs aren't associated with the departmental budget; rather, they cover salaries for my team, my staff, to support the process.

[Rhéal Fortin, Bloc, Rivière-du-Nord, QC]

Can you give me an idea of how much that represents cost-wise? What is the cost attached to the selection process?

I realize it comes under your ministerial budget, but I imagine the process gives rise to other expenses such as room rentals and salaries.

Can you give us an estimate?

[David Lametti, Liberal, LaSalle—Émard—Verdun, QC]

Not right now, but I can tell you what the costs associated with the JACs are. I have a staff member who works full time liaising with the judicial affairs office and supporting the judge selection process. Other people help him from time to time. I will check to see whether other costs are involved and what the numbers are.